I have a comment about the Baratheon Control part.
Starting from the second paragraph, I pretty much disagree with all of it: An experienced Lannister that is allied to GJ can almost always defend BW (unless you have some serious help from Tyrell).
Patchfacing Viper is a bad idea unless you have no choice, since you should never want to be doraned, in an experienced game of course.
In my opinion, the priority should be allying with Lanni by giving him BW. I remember many examples of bara vs lanni fights that just went on and on and were terrible for both sides.

At any case I believe you seriously overestimate the value of BW. Lanni and Baratheon should be allied for the sake of both houses. Also, Lanni should never try to take KL and CCP (unless very late game, or there is a gang-bang against bara) since bara can just retake his castles..

Last edited by ArchDemon on 2017-Oct-03 04:28, edited 1x in total

I agree with you about patchfacing Viper, I guess I see the appeal to it, but I suppose it doesn't go with my play style. I also agree that an experienced Lannister allied with GJ has a much easier time controlling BW than zizzeus suggested.

I even agree that allying with Lanni is usually in your interest, but by giving up BW? That doesn't seem like an alliance to me, it seems like ceding your lands to lanni.

BW is nothing more than a bonus for Lannister, and definitely isn't a neccessity. It's worth it to give it up sometimes versus dealing with the headache of fighting over it. But for Baratheon those 2 supply are everything in my opinion. Without it you'll spend all game on 2 supply (3 with good diplomacy) and not be able to maneuver as effectively as you should.

or there is a gang-bang against bara) since bara can just retake his castles..^^Hahah I've been the victim of a few of those myself

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I'm perfectly calm, Dude.

Calmer than you are.

I disagree about that BW is just a bonus. Lanni has two choices:
One is to fight GJ and the other is to get 6 supplies and wait for the game to end (possiblly wait to march somewhere).
If Lanni doesn't fight GJ, BW is crucial also to protect from raid BW->SS.
Also, Bara should aim to get supplies from Stark both diplomatically and/or brutally.
I am on my phone now, but feel free to see examples for both playstyles that worked OK in my Bara and Lanni KC games (group 4).
I don't know if I win any of those games but my bara game was pure terrible luck (WOL) and my Lanni game, well, don't see what else I could have done, might still win

Sure, what I did was merely strategy, I am sure there are otger strategies. But, I believe these are probably the best ones

I agree with Arch.
BW is absolutely crucial for Lannister to hold his lands together and to possibly start an attack on Bara in the last rounds.

Its sad, but in 2nd-Edition, Lannister has no real chances to win the game with 7 castles but only through lucky circumstances (weak Tyrell and Bara) or in round 10.

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"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." , Terry Pratchett

Its sad, but in 2nd-Edition, Lannister has no real chances to win the game with 7 castles but only through lucky circumstances (weak Tyrell and Bara) or in round 10.
That's not entirely true. Lanni can get 7 by wiping out Greyjoy.  You need West cards to cooperate, but that's true of any match up, to some degree or another.

An experienced Lannister that is allied to GJ can almost always defend BW (unless you have some serious help from Tyrell). It has been a year since I published the guide, and I can agree with this. An experienced Lannister can usually hold BW, at least until:

a) Web of Lies, although Bara has his own problems then
b) Tyrell helps remove support with QoT, which isn't uncommon
c) GJ starts his stab

Considering all of those options, plus the option that you're not playing against an experienced Lannister there are still good chances for Bara to take Blackwater. We can disagree about the value of this territory but it doesn't change the points above.


Patchfacing Viper is a bad idea unless you have no choice, since you should never want to be doraned, in an experienced game of course.
Who cares if you get Doran'd in the first or second round, before the clash? You lose one star which goes to your 'friend' Tyrell, or you lose throne improving Stannis. Usually in this case, without Doran and Viper Martell just sits there trying to get his cards back and scrape up some tokens, since his first clash positions are usually pretty bad and without those two cards he should be concerned about invasion.


In my opinion, the priority should be allying with Lanni by giving him BW. I remember many examples of bara vs lanni fights that just went on and on and were terrible for both sides. Lanni and Baratheon should be allied for the sake of both houses.

If the south is allied against you then by all means promise BW to Lanni if needed, since you certainly can't fight on three fronts. But I don't see how always allying with Lanni is a good strategy. Surely the political situation might favour war in some cases?


Also, Lanni should never try to take KL and CCP (unless very late game, or there is a gang-bang against bara) since bara can just retake his castles.. Agreed, although I think I mentioned that the intention isn't really to hold CcP, just to prevent raids on HH support/CP orders. And taking KL is more about denying tokens/muster points to Bara, even for one round. Since Lanni can grow troops faster, he can often win the war of attrition here.

I think that BW is valuable to both players. In this sense it's sort of like the Reach and Princes Path, or the third sea around the Bay area. When one player has it, things are just a bit unbalanced. Sometimes it's worth the price for the imbalance (ie. Tyrell usually doesn't contest PP because early was can go very badly) and other times it isn't, which is how I view BW. If everyone's home territories were perfectly balanced I don't think this game would be nearly as interesting.

Anyway, thanks for the points. Always nice to hear how experienced players think. Does this mean you agree with EVERYTHING ELSE in the guide?

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Zizzeus Guide to AGoT

Anyway, thanks for the points. Always nice to hear how experienced players think. Does this mean you agree with EVERYTHING ELSE in the guide?
Nah, just too lazy to think all of these things through. Better wait for someone to make a risky statement and then demolish him :-P

Anyways, this is still a nice guide for beginners to start into the Metalevels of playing aGoT.

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"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." , Terry Pratchett

Who says there will be clash in the first 5 rounds?
It happens so often since Lanni doesn't usually need early clash, and you just get unlucky. Giving Tyrell a star in that situation will make himmuch stronger and bara much weaker.

I generally agree with what I've read, but ofc I didn't read the most due to laziness haha

That's not entirely true. Lanni can get 7 by wiping out Greyjoy.  You need West cards to cooperate, but that's true of any match up, to some degree or another.
How I wish to get a Lanny victory by taking 7 castles purely by land wars (not taking greyjoy seas and pyke). It's very hard but I've seen some very good players pull if off on occasion. Usually when I try this I end up on 4-5 castles, which might be enough to win on supply.

About Bara not being able to break through a competent lannister...

There's much truth in it, but at the same time Bara has some advantages push lannister back:

1) Greater power generation: getting above lanny on the tracks helps obviously.

2) Safer power generation: A bit related to the above. On dragonstone bara can get power unhindered. Meanwhile Lanny when bara is invading his lands may find it hard to collect tokens.

3) Stannis. In case you get behind on throne (better not imo) you get an extra powerful card that might help you to get the crucial breakthrough.

4) Patchface. When Lanny has full deck, patchface gregor so you can more safely invade his lands. That leaves lanny with only one card above 2 strength, while you have 3 (Renly, Davos and Stannis).

Of course if you want to invade lanny it's best to do so before he's walled in around SS. Maybe in this case the opener where you takes KL turn 1 is better? Have to trust Martell then of course, that's a risk.

Also to win land wars you need to make knight armies, or you'll never break through. Start assembling a 3-knight army, means you can't make three ships in one sea though due to supply reasons. Once you hold blackwater and mountains of moon, upgrade to a 4 knight army, this might smash through even the lanny sea support.

Last edited by Bround on 2017-Oct-05 20:00, edited 1x in total

Also I enjoyed the guide. And I read it completely

I guess I'm still lacking in the control part. My motto is, when another player needs to be stopped, convince someone else to do the dirty work, while I keep focussing on my initial target. Also I don't backstab nearly often enough, even when it's warranted.

That's not entirely true. Lanni can get 7 by wiping out Greyjoy.  You need West cards to cooperate, but that's true of any match up, to some degree or another.
How I wish to get a Lanny victory by taking 7 castles purely by land wars (not taking greyjoy seas and pyke). It's very hard but I've seen some very good players pull if off on occasion. Usually when I try this I end up on 4-5 castles, which might be enough to win on supply.
Lanni's road to 7 overland is harder than anyone's, but also the seas are a major part of the game, so I don't know why you would discount that.  Taking out Greyjoy is Lanni's best route to victory; when you have unraidable sea support/transport to 4 strongholds, its up to every other house to drop what they're doing and stop you.

Well, ofcourse the easiest way for Lannister is by taking the Sea.
However, if GJ isnt overagressive against Stark or does not wate balon, its impossible for Lannister to do that.
Its a strategy, a player should always have in his mind to strike at the right time, but its just not a overall-strategy, or you are still sitting on your 3 castles in round 10.

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"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." , Terry Pratchett

Hey, sitting with 3 castles in round 10 is perfectly alright assuming you have 6 supplies and the other players don't have more than 4 castles