Hello All!

So it’s quite obvious through consistent analysis that there is bias that appears to favor some houses which affects the overall health of the game. With that being said there are two houses in particular that struggle with consistent victory, namely Lannister and Tyrell. Here, we will be focusing on Tyrell and how to balance their reliance on favorable event cards early in the game.

For the sake of this discussion, we will be assuming...
1) Martell musters two boats on his first turn
2) Martell is looking to attack Tyrell if event cards are favorable


The Problem

As we all know, Tyrell has the weakest starting influence positions out of any house which is made up for by starting location. They are quite isolated and are able to take Oldtown first turn while having a relatively safe PT generation territory in The Arbor. However, to alleviate this strong start location they are unable to muster while their biggest early game threat is given said ability and if used well, can be abused. A Martell player should always be looking to take West Summer Sea turn 2 if no muster/clash(where Tyrell obtains sword) appears in the events. In the case where neither of these possible situations occur, Tyrell is a sitting duck to a turn 2 Martell all-in where Martell takes WSS, plays Viper, and kills Tyrell’s boat. Currently, this battle is typically done in a manner where Martell is only required to attack in with two of his ships (3(M) vs. 2(T)) allowing him to leave one boat behind for a follow-up land invasion. This set of coupled moves occurs quite frequently and usually will result in a Martell win if Baratheon does not intervene.


The Proposed Solution

Tyrell starts with two ships in Redwyne. I’ve thought about this change a lot and I honestly could not see any unhealthy balance changes associated with it. This solution does not allow Tyrell to expand quicker or generate pressure on the map in the early stages of the game. In the case of unfavorable event cards, this change allows Tyrell to defend WSS against a turn 2 Martell all-in with 3 instead of the current amount of 2. Now you may see this and think, “Martell can still win this fight if he attacks with 3 boats instead of two”, and you’re right. But this means that in order for Martell to create a sea link between himself and WSS, he would need to muster again, delaying his all-in by one turn. This also allows Tyrell to keep a boat in the case of Viper slaying his other for that essential raid/retake in the following turns.


In Conclusion

This change seems to bring more balance to an unfavorable Tyrell start. As the game currently stands, Tyrell is extremely reliant on favorable early event cards or Martell’s mercy. To alleviate this, the proposed solution was to give Tyrell a minor early game buff which will not greatly impact their mid to late game powerhouse status. Obviously this change may effect Martell’s overall win rate which means it may require some more balancing to be done in that regard, but I believe to first step is to remove this “gamble” that Tyrell plays at the start of every game.


Thoughts?

Last edited by Lrich on 2017-Nov-17 16:36, edited 1x in total

I think it's a great propose for game balance. Everyone talks about Lannister/Greyjoy but few talk about Tyrell. In the high level, as you can see in my post about the KC's tournament, Tyrell is the weakest house.

Click for details.

https://www.thronemaster.net/?goto=community&sub=forum&fid=3&tid=46560#top

The change you propose gives more security to Tyrell. Besides that, it's according to the books, because the Redwyne's fleet is one of the strongest in Westeros.

Your analysis was extremely helpful in my initial thought process!

A major point here is to determine how much this change alters Martell’s overall strategy/logistics. Martell is notorious for being a “boring” house where all you can do is sit in a corner and wait for a proper opportunity to push out (which in many cases relies on a naval attack). This change would without a doubt decrease the odds of a Martell breakout occurring. In that case we may need to establish a healthy buff to Martell that could be used in the mid game to increase their expansion potential. Possibly adding a barrel to Yronwood to allow for an army of four (given they have control of their natural territory) for crucial naval attacks or switching the crown on boneway for the barrel on salt shore to alleviate their struggle with power token generation are some of the other changes I have thought of.

Last edited by Lrich on 2017-Nov-17 17:03, edited 1x in total

Your analysis was extremely helpful in my initial thought process!
Thank you!

A major point here is to determine how much this change alters Martell’s overall strategy/logistics. Martell is notorious for being a “boring” house where all you can do is sit in a corner and wait for a proper opportunity to push out (which in many cases relies on a naval attack). This change would without a doubt decrease the odds of a Martell breakout occurring. In that case we may need to establish a healthy buff to Martell that could be used in the mid game to increase their expansion potential. Possibly adding a barrel to Yronwood to allow for an army of four (given they have control of their natural territory) for crucial naval attacks or switching the crown on boneway for the barrel on salt shore to alleviate their struggle with power token generation are some of the other changes I have thought of.
I don't think Martell needs a change. He's already a strong house, with a good naval support and he can  make his enemies bleed even losing the battle with Doran and Arianne.

I like the idea of a second ship in Redwyne Straits and do not think that Martell needs a boost in this case.

One alternative to this approach is to give the valyrian blade to tyrell, but I like your idea better since it tackles the main weakness of Tyrell (an early naval attack by Martell) without interfering with the land combat too much.

For naval combat the second ship is better than the sword, since you can save one from Red Viper. In addition the unit which moved to Oldtown gets better mobility in the second round, if you leave one ship in redwyne in the first round (and support from there).

Last edited by Nomaris on 2017-Nov-17 20:47, edited 1x in total

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“The only way to treat disease is to understand disease.“

I think giving the blade to Tyrell over Greyjoy would effect the rest of the board in a drastic manner. This change was proposed with the idea that it wouldn’t cause a ripple affect to other houses.

In my mind, the only true drawback if Martell does not attack in is the ability for the unit on Oldtown to push out to The Arbor or Searoad Marshes. But in most cases the said unit typically is consolidating or taking Three Towers for the safe supply anyway.

Last edited by Lrich on 2017-Nov-17 19:59, edited 1x in total

One alternative to this approach is to give the valyrian blade to tyrell, but I like your idea better since it tackles the main weakness of Tyrell (an early naval attack by Martell) without interfering with the land combat too much.
I like the idea about the blade, but there's a problema: Doran. Tyrell would keep the sword for just one round and loose his advantage.

I like the idea about the blade, but there's a problema: Doran. Tyrell would keep the sword for just one round and loose his advantage.
Yeah, but Martell would have to sacrifice a crucial march on his ships AND one unit which leads the attack.

This should be enough for Tyrell to consolidate a bit.

If no mustering comes up in the first few rounds, Tyrell is fucked anyways.

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"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." , Terry Pratchett

I like the idea of giving Tyrell 2 boats. But I want to mention that Tyrell is not powerless against Martell.
Always ask for an alliance or peace turn 1 with martell. I had a game where Martell said, let’s wait for Westeros cards. I just laughed and attacked Starfall

Even though Tyrell is heavily reliant on Westeros cards, he is not powerless against martell. QoT, Mace, Loras, they can make martells life very difficult. I believe Tyrell has the best or second best set of house cards in the game, using them correctly is more important and more difficult than other houses.

In another thread (for full extend see: https://www.thronemaster.net/?goto=community&sub=forum&fid=3&tid=43552#top), which was opened by Frode789 and was commented by Zizzeus, a seemingly reasonable and simple suggestion could do the deal in order to avoid a board which is getting out of hand very early (even in beginner's games wherein Lanni, apparently, get's annihilated very early, but certainly not to Greyjoy's rather Stark's all-over advantage) - Switching Asha's combat strength with Balon's, though I prefer to apply this variant with switching Euron's in case his one is switched with Asha's before.
That sugestion would be awesome for game balanced. But you could try to switch Asha's combat strenght with Victarion too. I think it would be better, because GJ needs Balon. And who conquers the seas in the west wins that war. With Asha 3 and Victarion 1, the golden sound would be a little more safety.

The problem about this is how to implement this variant in the website. But it's  worthy to try some forum games.

Even though Tyrell is heavily reliant on Westeros cards, he is not powerless against martell. QoT, Mace, Loras, they can make martells life very difficult. I believe Tyrell has the best or second best set of house cards in the game, using them correctly is more important and more difficult than other houses.
I agree with you, but Pathface, Arianne and Tyrion could burn Loras easily. If you safe these cards for the last round, Tyrell's punch will not be so strong in the end.

Last edited by Wellerson Gaiozo on 2017-Nov-18 03:42, edited 4x in total

I agree with you, but Pathface, Arianne and Tyrion could burn Loras easily. If you safe these cards for the last round, Tyrell's punch will not be so strong in the end. Both Arianne and Tyrion can be baited out, and both will most likely result in a battle loss for your opponent. Yes these are counters to his repeat march, but they do have drawbacks.

When I last played Patchface against a Tyrell opponent, I did not discard Loras, I discarded the Queen of Thorns. I'm honestly more afraid of that card than I ever was of Loras.

Back on the topic of two boats. I think the balancing move I would do is give Tyrell a second boat, but downgrade the knight to a footman. I would do a similar thing to GJ and Bara.

So the sum of my changes would be - give Tyrell a second boat, and Equal Mustering Points

Downgrading tyrell/bara/greyjoy's land units has the roundabout effect of buffing Stark, who is already basically the strongest house.

I agree with Hodor.

I think that Baratheon does not need a downgrade, as if we were to knock their knight to a footman, they can no longer take KL first turn which would ruin the current dynamic aspect of their opening. Greyjoy is supposed to be fairly strong early, and while Greyjoy typically wins over Lannister, I believe that downgrading the Greyjoy knight has too much impact on the early stages of the game. As for Tyrell, I don’t think they need a downgrade as they already start off quite weak, and are only really able to challenge Martell at Starfall first turn because of their starting knight.

Overall, I think that this additional ship that Tyrell starts with would be beneficial to the game. I was hoping to get together a group of 6 players to test out this variation (multiple times) in a private game. We’d perform this by setting up a standard game with the “Preceding Mustering” option, where Tyrell is the only player allowed to muster an extra ship and all other players must pass to begin the first turn.

Please PM me if you’re interested in this!

Tis' true my Lords Lrich and Ser Hodor, my proposal holds no validity. I have been persuaded by your clever retort, as my lack of experience shows.

I would be willing to test this Tyrell balancing idea. The only issue I see is the fact that in-game alliances and Westeros cards will probably have a bigger game impact than the extra boat. For consistency's sake, I would suggest Tyrell and Martell to always be at war in those test games.

Downgrading tyrell/bara/greyjoy's land units has the roundabout effect of buffing Stark, who is already basically the strongest house.
I agree with you, except about GJ. I prefer a stronger Stark than a stronger GJ. The impact in the game is very different. Stark cannot wipe out another house like GJ does.

I was hoping to get together a group of 6 players to test out this variation (multiple times) in a private game.
I would like to join this game too