How should I play?

Last edited by permanentquandary on 2018-Sep-03 16:11, edited 1x in total

You are in much the same space as on turn one, just with more ships. I'd start by asking Tyrell for support at sea, if Martell does not attack, and Stark to raid or march from Moat Cailin.

For orders, CP* in Lannisport, March 0 in Stoney Sept.  March +1 in Sunset Sea, Support +1 in Golden Sound.

GJ is almost certain to have a march in Ironman Bay. If he has a raid or support there, switch Sunset to a raid.

Attack Ironman right off the bat, and  you can force Balon with Gregor, or settle for Euron with the Hound. In either case, he will have to use the blade on defense, not be able to kill your ship, and probably have dropped 2 tokens and Aeron along with it.

Without Balon or the blade, he can't take either sea without the use of both ships and Victarion/Euron.  He is unlikely to kill the routed ship in Sunset, but if he wants to fine, it means you still have enough support to hold Riverrun against a -1 knight.  He may move both to the Golden Sound, in which case he leaves Ironman Bay empty.  Your footman cannot hold Riverrun anymore by himself, but he can retreat to Harrenhall if the Hound keeps him alive. And that's assuming that he is willing to leave Seagard empty with Stark at Moat Cailin.

In the worst case scenario here, you have lost Golden Sound and a ship, while your opponent has taken Riverrun.  But he has paid a steep price; also emptying Ironman Bay and Seagard, burning through all of his good cards and probably dropping two tokens. Meanwhile, you still hold Sunset Sea, have a ship in the port, have exchanged Stoney for Harrenhall, mustered 2 more units and should still hold Tywin.  His hold on Riverrun will be even more tenuous than it usually is on turn 2 going into the next round (where if there is no mustering, you can stroll directly into Ironman as well).

It's even more likely that Greyjoy will get flustered and try to play it safe, in which case you get Riverrun and maybe keep Golden Sound to boot, while still having gotten rid of Balon.  The downside to this tactic is that it will not gain you any tokens while Baratheon and Tyrell pull further ahead of the pack. But it nets you so much else that on balance, I think you gain more than enough to make it worthwhile.

You are in much the same space as on turn one, just with more ships. I'd start by asking Tyrell for support at sea, if Martell does not attack, and Stark to raid or march from Moat Cailin.

For orders, CP* in Lannisport, March 0 in Stoney Sept.  March +1 in Sunset Sea, Support +1 in Golden Sound.

GJ is almost certain to have a march in Ironman Bay. If he has a raid or support there, switch Sunset to a raid.

Attack Ironman right off the bat, and  you can force Balon with Gregor, or settle for Euron with the Hound. In either case, he will have to use the blade on defense, not be able to kill your ship, and probably have dropped 2 tokens and Aeron along with it.

Without Balon or the blade, he can't take either sea without the use of both ships and Victarion/Euron.  He is unlikely to kill the routed ship in Sunset, but if he wants to fine, it means you still have enough support to hold Riverrun against a -1 knight.  He may move both to the Golden Sound, in which case he leaves Ironman Bay empty.  Your footman cannot hold Riverrun anymore by himself, but he can retreat to Harrenhall if the Hound keeps him alive. And that's assuming that he is willing to leave Seagard empty with Stark at Moat Cailin.

In the worst case scenario here, you have lost Golden Sound and a ship, while your opponent has taken Riverrun.  But he has paid a steep price; also emptying Ironman Bay and Seagard, burning through all of his good cards and probably dropping two tokens. Meanwhile, you still hold Sunset Sea, have a ship in the port, have exchanged Stoney for Harrenhall, mustered 2 more units and should still hold Tywin.  His hold on Riverrun will be even more tenuous than it usually is on turn 2 going into the next round (where if there is no mustering, you can stroll directly into Ironman as well).

It's even more likely that Greyjoy will get flustered and try to play it safe, in which case you get Riverrun and maybe keep Golden Sound to boot, while still having gotten rid of Balon.  The downside to this tactic is that it will not gain you any tokens while Baratheon and Tyrell pull further ahead of the pack. But it nets you so much else that on balance, I think you gain more than enough to make it worthwhile.
I did as you suggested and Grejoy played a Raid. I think he should've played a March because he wins in any attempt I make to attack him, meaning he can then March on routed units. So luckily he didn't do that. He plays Raid so I changed my Supp+1 GS to March -1, setting up for an attack on Ironman's Bay with 4 strength from Sunset Sea.

That will force Balon and the blade, and next turn I have 5 ships from my CP*. Looking good.

I would have suggested turning the +1 march to a raid.  That way he still has to use Balon to take Riverrun, does not kill the unit and you keep your good cards, both seas and 2 extra muster points.

The march is fine, though.  It means he has to hold Balon back for defense, which is great, but also that he can take Riverrun with a smaller card, putting him closer to a recycle.  It also means your ships are more clustered in Sunset Sea, which could be a more dangerous position for them, if muster/clash comes.

As a lannister with no R2 muster you are in a great position. U have raven, so u can counter pretty much any gj movement by simply swaping orders. U can do 3 attacks, while he can do only 2. U can wait to see his moves and adjust to the situation. U are also 1 powertoken richer, which migh be crucial in the clash to come, i would abuse situation and make him even poorer by biting with iron bay attempt. What i would do given situation from the map.
Orders:
+1 March Sunset sea
-1 March Golden Sound
Cp* Lannisport
+0 March Stoney sept/ or CP and screw  RR for now

with such placement u will end up having total 4 combat str while attacking, against his 2, gj has 2 choices straight balon or aeron into anything (2 powertokens less for upcoming clash) depending on what u baiting him with. Id go for sir Jaimie or gregor. Whatever he decide on doing he win, but u still have 3 ships in sunset sea (or two if he use Euron) and u muster another 2 ships in lannisport. U go for riverun or harenhall and wait upcoming events(unless CP, then u pray for clash). Most stuff Ser Hodor already said and i agree. With this aproach on the seas u most likely make Gj use aeron (he play ultra safe) and waste 2 PT or use balon for certain win. Both ways you are ahead without loosing much.

U play one turn ahead and count ur odds.

no muster/clash - ur happy, depends how gj bid, but u have more gold so can outbid him. No muster means he still have only two ships and u can win Iron bay if u take his sword away.
no muster/ no clash - best possible scenario. u have initiative, still got raven, have 5 ships against his 2 just make another double attacks and this time no aeron/no balon to use
muster/ no clash - u most likely lost ur sea battles, sometimes it cant be helped with bad events in bad time
muster / clash - depend on ur bids but its not great as muster pretty much makes gj safe with him making 2 ships in harbour and additional one in a bay - now only web of lies or sword can change the odds.

I dont worry that much about losing RR, if muster is about to come he will put his whole navy anyway (having or not having rr) and the fun or any sea attempts are over, unless u win the blade and initiative on a clash (even then it will be hardly possible) if he keep having balon.

just consider the odds of certain events and play it so in worst case u will be still in th game, best case u have iron bay attempt for real getting his ships done is crucial to kill gj.

Simply said - i would do as Lanni did, gambling the odds - this gj play ultrasafe by the look of it (no rr first turn, althou u did not move from stony sept)



Other strat is simply leting him into RR and next turn owning with siege u can make from C* + cersei disrupt his whole turn, maybe with lucky events this give u attempt on iron bay with ur second attack on ur sea

Last edited by Furtum Vitae on 2018-Sep-05 02:05, edited 3x in total

I disagree.  As a general note, laying all 3 march orders initially limits your options for switching with the raven. More specifically, your order set loses 1 combat str from a +1 support order and even more crucially requires that you give up the initiative and allow Greyjoy to march on you before you can even bring your force to bear.

Consider what I would say is the most probable GJ set of orders, which would include a march 0 in Ironman Bay and a -1 march in Seagard. If you have to march your ships first to set up your attack, it's easy as lamprey pie for  to then march one ship into the now empty Golden Sound, and the other into Sunset Sea, where Balon can still win the 1v3 battle handily. At least Stark has not put a ship in Bay Of Ice, so they can retreat instead of just dying. But it's already a terrible position where you've lost all 3 of the important sea areas, and that's before he takes Riverrun with a 1v1 march.

You can mitigate some of the damage by switching the Lannisport CP* to a support, so that you can keep Riverrun.  Then he has to risk you putting ships into Ironman if he leaves it completely empty.  But he can still leave a ship there while taking Golden Sound easily and defeating your 4 strength attack with Balon. And you have lost the benefit of building 2 extra ships in the process.

In that case you have Riverrun and Sunset Sea, but you have allowed Greyjoy to play at his pace, losing at most 1 premium card while he takes over the 2 most important sea areas. My way runs the risk of losing Riverrun as well as Golden Sound, but by forcing Greyjoy to use both his biggest weapons before he has had a chance to attack, it forces him to play a much riskier game to get there, while you extend your advantages in units, house cards, and most likely tokens going into the next round.

well, if he has march order +0 on a bay, why dont u simply swap for +1 support on Golden sound? U have +5 vs 2, u force him to use both balon and the sword. We would simply end up in a very simmilar position after using raven.

I just assumed with Gj first turn not agresive play (not taking empty RR) he play rather conservative, Stark is at his backyard with footman ( i dont think  i would move my knight to RR as GJ, that would let Stark get free Seagard).

Im not saying mine order placement is better ( its riskier) it assume i will know what Gj gonna play. I opt for it thou, cuz after i see order placement i can use diplomacy and raven to adapt

As we already know, Gj player did play raid, so with my order placement u can still swap stoney sept +0 march for cp if u belive clash will come ( u have raven, big chances clash will come if u decide so :p )

Last edited by Furtum Vitae on 2018-Sep-05 15:02, edited 2x in total

well, if he has march order +0 on a bay, why dont u simply swap for +1 support on Golden sound? U have +5 vs 2, u force him to use both balon and the sword. We would simply end up in a very simmilar position after using raven.

That's what I said in my initial post, except I started from that position and said to switch to a raid if he doesn't march in Ironman. That way you guarantee maximum support for Riverrun, plus if you wind up marching on Ironman you have an extra +1 combat str.

That's what I said in my initial post, except I started from that position and said to switch to a raid if he doesn't march in Ironman. That way you guarantee maximum support for Riverrun, plus if you wind up marching on Ironman you have an extra +1 combat str.

yeah, i agree. Im still having habits from real boardgame, where u have two choices to use the raven. I often go for risky moves, assuming i know excatcly what gj gonna do and can look at the wilding card at the same time. If i guessed wrong i simply swap orders. Here another usage of the raven has no effect, so ur option seems "safer" approach.

Do you think at some time we will see wilding cards added here as well? That would be nice extra boost for Lannisters.

Maybe I missed something but GJ can't march into GS because he played a raid, so he can only go there if he routs there. I'm CP*ing 1 ship and a SE in Lannisport at the end of the turn after I've lost the Ironman's Bay battle with my ships (but forced out his Balon)

As you can see, I made an error by playing Tywin. That was because I didn't understand why it was better to play Gregor Clegane (in my head I was thinking he can play Euron and then I lose a ship.. herp derp.. that's bad)

This is probably quite a big error.

How am I supposed to get PTs if I have to spend all my resources fighting by the way?

Last edited by permanentquandary on 2018-Sep-06 23:38, edited 3x in total

Link to the game if you wanna follow it:
https://game.thronemaster.net/?game=169345&access=REMOVED

(dunno if that link will work for spectator mode)

And here are the Westeros cards that came up for R2:

Last edited by permanentquandary on 2018-Sep-06 23:42, edited 1x in total

Sure, once you know there is a raid there, the conversation is different.  My suggestion was for when GJ's order set was unknown (i.e., when you have to lay your orders).

If you use the messenger raven to raid Ironman from Sunset, you lose the opportunity to force Balon at sea. But in that case, you are guaranteed to hold all of your sea territories and can only lose Riverrun if he burns Balon.

On the other hand, 2 sea marches means defending Riverrun is much more difficult.  And it actually lowers the amount of marching strength you can bring to bear on Ironman, and slows down how quickly you can bring it down.

How am I supposed to get PTs if I have to spend all my resources fighting by the way?
As lannister u can throw Tywin to get 2 powtokens for sure win, as u already used him and lost its not an option anymore The truth is- u cant do it effectively, that is the cost of war, ur troops are needed to provide defensive or offensive orders to hold (or increase) ur borders
THe Lanni/Gj dance benefits gj more in terms of PT farming as he can safely do this in his port/ pyke and greywatch spot. As a lannister u r pushed to defensive and need to use ur spots to defend against OP Gj cards and his early two ships advantage and sword. NOthing u can do at the moment and u need to realize u will not earn any more cp untill u resolve ur conflit with GJ. Hard, brutal, but true. Treat these 7 gold u have as a long term money u have.

As for clash - i thought of it and it is a gamble ^^. I would ask bara if he puts me ahead of gj in case of Tie ( best if u can creat alliance with him, as  this clash is ur most important clash of the game - it will resolve ur conflinct with Gj, later on the one with the upperhand will just clean up after the other one. U need to outplay him. As neither stark, nor tyrell need sword i would bet 7 on fiefdom track. Yeah. Bold risky move. But most likely Gj will bid 6 on it he will waste gold u will get the sword. With it u can safely cersei him (if u are first) or get IB by placing march order on sunset sea and get his ib with + 7 (gregor, 3 ships, sword) , he simply cant defend it if u r first (2+1 def +4 euron) u win on tie. Ib is urs. U can win Gj war using this gamble - ask Ser Hodor how it works


Ps. As for cp, u can go for cp in hh ( bara most likely will be busy fighint for his  sea area and will not raid it, neither will gj footman as u cant support this turn and he will have either defence order, either march order if he has the initiative. It might backfire, but u already gamble a lot, why not using ur previous gamble to now safely cp in hh, while this guy has nothing more to do?

Last edited by Furtum Vitae on 2018-Sep-07 05:26, edited 1x in total

As for orders on round 3:

Greyjoy is pretty boxed in.  If he doesn't play raid in Ironman Bay, you can take it and wipe out his navy with Gregor. With no defense and marching 2nd, he has to support from Seagard or be immediately Cersei'd in Riverrun.  The footman in Riverrun can't play defense or hope to march out before he's overrun, so a raid there is the only real option.

Does he realize that?  Who knows. It takes a getting bit a few times for people to learn to properly fear Cersei.

For orders, I'd put:

Supp+1 in Golden Sound
March 0 in Lannisport
Raid in Sunset Sea
March -1 or Support (likely to be raided) in Harrenhall

You leave the March +1 out to swap into Sunset (if for some reason he is not raiding from Ironman) or Lannisport (assuming he is).

If you raid Ironman to protect the +1 support, you can march 9v3 on Riverrun (even more if Stark raids Seagard).  Use Cersei and remove the CP or counter-march in Pyke.  Then you have expended only your lowest card to hold both your seas, secure both your strongholds, and stop your opponent from gaining any tokens.

If he is foolish enough to march in Ironman, you swap the +1 march into Sunset and immediately wipe out the navy with Gregor.  Then you still have an 8v3 march to take Riverrun with Kevan or Jaime.

As for the Harrenhall march, I think putting a CP there is much more likely to cost you a token to a raid than gain any. You can junk the march, use it to burn a card with Baratheon (who should be desperate for friendly relations with Martell likely taking out Dragonstone this round), or move to  Stoney Sept for a protected CP position on the next round.  Under other circumstances I might advocate for Blackwater first, but with Bara's position he is definitely not going to be picking supply or contesting it from you any time soon.  If muster comes, you won't get credit for those barrels before you resolve it anyway.

The question then would be whether to leave a token in Harrenhall.  You are low enough on units that the extra footman would be nice, and leaving it behind does put you in a worse position for a clash.  But, you can pick against the clash if DWDW comes up, and even if it does you still will be ahead of Greyjoy and Martell, which should be enough to secure the blade, and wipe out the Ironborn navy and prospects for victory.  Personally, I might say do not leave it behind, so you can bid one to stay ahead on the throne track and still guarantee fiefdom dominance.