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Ashlander
IronStandsEternal 9 hours ago

3/6p... you are welcome to join

IronStandsEternal 9 hours ago

3/6p

IronStandsEternal 10 hours ago

2/6p

IronStandsEternal 10 hours ago

6p live game is up in case someone wants to play

D_jaja 10 hours ago

2/3

D_jaja 10 hours ago

3p live up

D_jaja 12 hours ago

2/3

D_jaja 13 hours ago

Ok no interest in 6P live, then maybe 3P?

D_jaja 13 hours ago

How much players?

JaqenHghar0 13 hours ago

pbem for beginners?

D_jaja 14 hours ago

Lets try it... 6P live up

smssf 17 hours ago

hostless 3p live

Silver Den 17 hours ago

Legend, thank you very much

Ihor 17 hours ago

Done

smssf 17 hours ago

hostless 3o

Silver Den 18 hours ago

interested in playing

Silver Den 18 hours ago

can one of the modders kick a player from a 3p live game? The player has been offline for a while but there are players who are

smssf 18 hours ago

any 3p?

Silver Den 18 hours ago

join 3p

travis23 18 hours ago

3plive fast or better

There's sth. you wanna say. I know it.



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Jester
Blacksmith

Posts: 66
Games: 23
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Member since: 2018-Mar-03

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Mar-27 11:27
I'd like to discuss fresh expansion of GOT 2nd edition and new problems that it created. I understand it's not impelemented on Thronemaster (and it won't happen anytime soon, if ever), but I think many of us play boardgame version fairly often so my concerns are still valid.

I must mention that I have NO experience with Baratheons in full, 8 player games as of March 2019 My opinions are speculative in nature and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter - especially if you had opportunity to play Mother of Dragons with GOT veterans, or at least semi experienced players.


HOUSE BARATHEON IN BASE GAME

Although Stags are the most likely winners in 4p and 5p competition, 6p games show much different results. The win ratio on Thronemaster is 18.2%, which is much closer to 16.7% than any other faction. A good argument could be made for Baratheons as the best House in terms of balance.

Pros and cons (vanilla, 6p):
+ good power generation
+ good access to strongholds/castles
+ Iron Throne, 1 star order
+ additional ship
+ unraidable Blackwater Bay
+ relatively safe position thanks to Salladhor and reasons mentioned earlier

- poor supply
- inferior House Cards deck
- 4 neighbours

As much as I hate it, Baratheons have unanimously the worst deck of all. It's common knowledge at this point, judging by opinions on this forum, Boardgamegeek, Reddit etc. Limited number of icons, inflexibility and reliance on conditional power pumping are cited most often. There are three cards with variable combat strength, but House Greyjoy does this trick much better, with more swords and faster cycling.

It's hard to pull out a win with these cards alone and random position games seem to back it up. I don't have stats (if anyone has, please post a link!), but games I browsed show that Baratheon performance in less advantageous positions is usually abysmal.

The conclusion is self-explanatory: decent win ratios for House Baratheon result from juicy position on the board and manageable influence tracks. Change it a bit and all balancing may crumble.


HOUSE BARATHEON IN MOTHER OF DRAGONS
Now enter the new expansion. Imagine we play a full, 8p game - with Targaryens, Essos, Iron Bank, but no vassals. Probably the "ultimate" experience boardgame has to offer. All houses are affected to some extent, but Stags face completely different setup now.

1) No star orders.
That's right, Baratheon loses his lone star so Tyrell gets one. It means that two most common openings: double CP/muster and King's Landing bull rush are no longer viable. And even if Tyrell faced early Doran, Stags don't improve much (Arryn gets a star instead).

2) House Arryn blocks northern expansion.
The North was a favorite target for many Baratheon players. Not every Stark played March +1 in Shivering Sea, and even if he did, less careful/lucky players had their butts handed to them on Narrow Sea quite often. It's a big prize in vanilla game: not only you gain access to the Vale and its barrels, but you also control the Neck and may effectively finish House Stark before it solidifies its position.
Now with House Arryn and its 3 Knights so near, Baratheon will find himself on the defensive and may even struggle to keep Cracklaw Point in early game. It seems that blitz tactics favor House Arryn big time.

3) Baratheons are in the middle of the map, literally.
Shipbreaker Bay used to be fairly safe for Bara. As long as there is no Web of Lies, Blackwater Bay provides steady, firm support of 2-4 value every turn. Careful Baratheon could defend SB effectively. In Mother of Dragons expansion with Essos map, Shipbreaker borders 4 other sea areas, including two native seas of House Targaryen. It's not hard to imagine Bara neighbours getting additional 3-4 points of support from dragon faction. Or Targaryens invading it themselves.

4) House Targaryen has plenty of tools from the get-go.
OK so I already mentioned: I haven't played this out so I might be talking out of my *** here... BUT one could wonder if there are any means of defense against malicious Targaryen at all. They start with more ships, troops, they have 4 march orders and possible Viserys + Khal combo, effectively a 5 power card any time they wish. There are better openings for Targs, granted, but how many players will resist the urge of capturing your arch-rival's capital on Turn 1/2? I mean it WILL happen a lot, at least as often as we see aggressive Greyjoy openings. And even GJ needed a serious amount of luck to pierce Lannisport defenses on Turn 2, right?

I'm afraid Baratheons gain basically nothing from the expansion (even Lannister got a new ship in port, please check out the latest FAQ & Errata) but lose most advantages of their rich but flexible position. Does it mean that the most well-balanced House in the game was nerfed too hard, while thirtypercenters (Greyjoy) thrive with new shiny sea orders?

IS YELLOW THE NEW RED?
ElPopelos
Keeper of the Forbidden Wilds

Posts: 3,874
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Member since: 2013-Feb-01

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Mar-27 12:28
Moved this to the right Section.


Necrarch
Knight of Ni

Posts: 2,038
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Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Mar-27 12:33
With the additional Lanni ship in the latest FAQ, actually, they are in a fair position.

I think Bara is meant to be a vassal in the expansion, but if I would try to balance them a bit, I'll probably : switch Arryn / Bara on King's Court, and put a star on position 5. Three players having no star is anyway too harsh, I believe.

But that is how I'd do it, probably not what every one would do. ^^


JukeboxHero
Stonemason's Apprentice

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Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Mar-27 20:39
I've been looking for this errata, could anybody provide me a link to it?

As far as Baratheon goes, the two major problems stem from the star nerf, and targaryen's initial force

The star nerf evens out, however, if Baratheon has the option to go on the offensive, to be actually defensive, and to possibly take King's Landing with minimal effort.

As best I can see, the "correct" (i.e. most thematically proper) course correction is yet another ship to be in Blackwater.  If Baratheon is going to be so mediocre on these other tracks, it demands the ability to at least be more combatively competitive (much like Greyjoy).

I worry what three boats would do to balance, but can't imagine that would promote an egregious imbalance that couldn't be overcome by smart play or the natural push and pull of the game.

I've read some arguments that suggest that Targaryen is disincentivized to go after Baratheon so strongly, because it could open them up to Stark/Arryn or more likely, Martell.

This argument is flawed, because while Martell certainly can flex their might, initiative, and cards against Targaryen--there is little reason to do so. If Baratheon is already limping by Turn 2, why commit your resources to battles with a very strong opponent who can out last you in an area that doesn't help you win (the sea). Martell will always be best served holding tight and making a move to gobble up the remaining lands that Baratheon has before the other houses do.  Particularly where this gives them a victory advantage and, consequently, denies their immediate rivals of the same advantage.  Add to this that Targaryen has zero reason to fear Doran, and now you have a weighing of two wars where the risk is relatively low and the rewards are high (2 castles, a good area to CP, and a barrel) or medium risk, medium reward (getting maybe one castle and a barrel).

In short, another ship, as best as I can tell, is the only reasonable option to keep Baratheon competitive without adjusting a more permanent option.

Edit: that should be, adding A ship to Blackwater for a total of 3.
Jester
Blacksmith

Posts: 66
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Member since: 2018-Mar-03

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Mar-27 20:44
The link to Errata and FAQ v2.0 is below:
https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/22/2c/222c584e-9fed-48bc-a567-d71eb4c93614/agotbg_faq_v2_forweb.pdf
deranger
Squire

Posts: 121
Games: 55
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Member since: 2016-Mar-30

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Apr-05 04:39
A reason for Martell (and everyone else) to go after Targ is that a Targ left alone will usually win the game. I think it's intentional and beneficial that no house will win against Targaryen alone, but they must be dealt with. In my experience, starting mindset of Westeros should be to band together to fight Targ from the start. The room for intrigue comes when people break with that alliance for selfish reasons, possibly at some tangible encouragement from Targaryen.

I have to say, I don't think the game was balanced around 8 player play, but without vassals, Bara is definitely in a rought position and has a lot to benefit from rallying the houses against Targ (which shouldn't be an impossible sell).
deranger
Squire

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Member since: 2016-Mar-30

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Apr-05 04:40
A reason for Martell (and everyone else) to go after Targ is that a Targ left alone will usually win the game. I think it's intentional and beneficial that no house will win against Targaryen alone, but they must be dealt with. In my experience, starting mindset of Westeros should be to band together to fight Targ from the start. The room for intrigue comes when people break with that alliance for selfish reasons, possibly at some tangible encouragement from Targaryen.

I have to say, I don't think the game was balanced around 8 player play, but without vassals, Bara is definitely in a rought position and has a lot to benefit from rallying the houses against Targ (which shouldn't be an impossible sell). Baratheon gaining a vassal, and possibly a star or two at lower player counts definitely helps their position a lot.
JackKenobi
Master Blacksmith

Posts: 5
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Member since: 2018-Aug-26

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Apr-05 18:23
I would add that the new star order for tyrell is a huge help for a house that, with the new expansion, is literally hemmed in the corner.

Also, it's not really 3 houses that start with 0 stars as targ can never move up on any track. And so, as with the 6 player version, there's still 2 houses with 0 stars.

I would also point out that targ isn't after castles. They gain victory by gaining loyalty tokens via the IV westeros deck. Sure, for fun or madness, an aggressive targ can chase castles and destruction but from my play-throughs, the westeros houses will come to bara's aid more often than not. It can also be pointed out that the changes to bara are perhaps to point them away from westeros/kings landing and take the war to essos and targ and take those 3 castles that targ doesn't really need

I wish it could be implemented on here - it would be very interesting to see all the different tactics that the players on here would come up with!


deranger
Squire

Posts: 121
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Member since: 2016-Mar-30

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Apr-06 19:11
Being in a corner is usually a good thing- fewer directions threats can come from.

There are still 3 houses without stars- Arryn, Baratheon, and GJ all start without stars in 8 player games.

Targ still won't give up their castles for free, they need those for units and having a safe area for their dragons to grow, to have supply, and to consolidate doesn't hurt them either.

I don't really see how the changes to Bara would make them more likely to go after Targ. Not having the star for March +1's and the like definitely make it harder to do.
Jester
Blacksmith

Posts: 66
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Member since: 2018-Mar-03

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Jul-11 11:47
Three months later and I still don't see Baratheons playable in 8p MOD games. Any house rules invented? I'd ask on boardgamegeek but its GOT forum seems dead now... Summer children
Necrarch
Knight of Ni

Posts: 2,038
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Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Jul-11 13:38
One house rule that I'd like to try: the half star (on first starless position on Court Track).

A star that activates on every (even or odd, you have to choose which rule to use at the beginning of the game, would tend to say odd for turns 1/3/5/7/9) turn.

And invert Bara with Arryn to give him the half star on track position.

But have no player to try it with. :S


OlBeadyeyes
Squire

Posts: 23
Games: 57
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Member since: 2018-Jul-09

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Jul-11 18:27
Having tried to play Baratheon in MoD, I personally think that they've been nerfed so severely that they are only really playable as a vassal house. However, if I was to balance them, I would let them have a star temporarily, i.e.: until a clash comes up or the game reaches round 4, whatever comes first. That at least permits them to take King's Landing, which Bara desperately needs if they're going to be at least halfway competitive. Unfortunately, this does nothing to resolve the issue of the stags being hemmed in by Targaryen, which I see as the main issue with the house in MoD. The only upside I found was that Bara can do quite well out of the Iron Bank, not least grabbing the one to boost supply. By the end of the game, I had applied so many upgrades to Dragonstone that you couldn't even see the fort!
Jester
Blacksmith

Posts: 66
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Member since: 2018-Mar-03

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Jul-12 10:19
How about giving Baratheon more troops, just enough to take KL turn 1?
It's not as helpful as rolling out with 1 star order, especially in this fragile MOD setup... But it's easier to apply and doesn't need any modifications to tracks/board itself.

I'd say it shouldn't be a ship because Baratheon can overpower Martell on seas too easily (esp if Targs let them to do so). But a footman or knight in Kingswood perhaps?

Unfortunately playing next to Arryns and Targs are the biggest nerfs (along with the star) and it can't be balanced too well. Maybe if there was a reliable mix od ADWD alternate House Cards, AFFC Arryn's deck and Targaryen's "B" set, that'd make a difference.

But has anyone come up with it? Especially with ADWD positions (Baratheon in the North etc.)? I'd love to try that in a full game. MOD + ADWD + AFFC, that'd be great.
OwnerOfTheIronThrone
Knight

Posts: 23
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Member since: 2018-Nov-13

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Jul-12 10:54
If I remember right targ can take shipbreaker bay first turn. Am I wrong?
Jester
Blacksmith

Posts: 66
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Member since: 2018-Mar-03

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Jul-12 12:36
If I remember right targ can take shipbreaker bay first turn. Am I wrong?
I can check it at home, but yeah, I think he makes it with Viserys + Khal combo.
OwnerOfTheIronThrone
Knight

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Member since: 2018-Nov-13

Topic: Mother of Dragons: Baratheon balance issues
Posted: 2019-Jul-12 12:47
He has 4 to 3 if baratheon puts defence in blackwater bay. If baratheon would try to take KL with additional troop you have him it would go to 4 to 3. He could win even without viserys. And it seems to me best option. Attack baratheon before he becomes any danger. In all cok support GJ so that Stark must try to stop him from winning. That leaves Arryn and Martell. The first one is in rather week position to attack you so he probably will not. Finally you only have to fight Martell. Only card in his deck that can hurt dragons is Red Viper. So in one cycle of cards he can kill one dragon in best scenerio if you manage your cards good but you expose them to danger. The problem is that the best thing targ can do is crush baratheon. If you want to balance the game you must either change this or give baratheon HUGE BUFF. Like additional ship to blackwater bay.

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