Hi all,

Was thinking at the changes induced by the new FAQ and the additional ship for Lanni : will it not break the balance the reverse way and put Greyjoy in deep trouble ?

The set of orders for Lanni could be:

M-1 ship in port
M0 Stoney Sept
M+1 Golden Sound
CP* Lannisport

With the raven, if you don't have a March order in IronMan Bay, you can go ahead. If there is a march, either put a def +2 instead of your march +1 or keep it as is if there is no M-1 in port of Pyke.

You first M-1 whatever the GJ does. If he has a march on Pyke he has to use it now to have navy transport. You're now free to see what he does before going to Riverrun or Harenhal. Even better, if you kept your M+1 you can attack on Ironman's Bay right away and possibly force a use of Balon or Euron and just send the Hound or a fake Cersei.

And with you CP* you can even reinforce your fleet!

Do you feel that this early game can be dramaticaly changed ?
And worse, that if the Lanni is in a better position against Greyjoy, it will mainly help the Stark, that does not really need that ?

Would be happy to have some experienced players feedback, I am not a great GJ myself.

Last edited by Necrarch on 2019-May-10 17:25, edited 1x in total

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Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
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The ship just changes the starting orders from Greyjoy. With the additional ship I would put Cp on both my armies and march on ships.
Like this I limit Lannister to Golden Sound an can either push him out or secure Sunset Sea.
Like this Greyjoy has 8 tokens for an early clash and his start he cant take GS and Seagard in turn 1....So saying that Greyjoy is in deep trouble is only true when you compare it to the OP start it has now

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AFFC PBF - #10
You do not need to know everything, but where to read it.-Albert Einstein-

Reading is overrated.-sarcasm off-

The ship just changes the starting orders from Greyjoy. With the additional ship I would put Cp on both my armies and march on ships.
Like this I limit Lannister to Golden Sound an can either push him out or secure Sunset Sea.
Like this Greyjoy has 8 tokens for an early clash and his start he cant take GS and Seagard in turn 1....So saying that Greyjoy is in deep trouble is only true when you compare it to the OP start it has now
I'm not sure a House with a 24.6% win rate in a 6player game will be fucked over much by the ship in port. Honestly, this is a hot fix that should have been added ages ago.

The only thing that's bad about this, is that it only helps Stark more (indirectly) and the Stark win rate is only marginally removed from the Greyjoy one. So what I think needs to be done is for a hot fix to Stark.

Perhaps taking away one of his footmen or something could fix it.

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"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

I dont think it's a good chance in classic 6p games.
1.House Arryn and Targaryen:They can keep Stark busy and Stark becomes much weaker with Mother of Dragons expansion in which Lanni-GJ war is more common;
2.GJ can put 3 march orders in the expansion,which is rather important for him.

Though the extra ship is a welcome addition, the fundamental problem is that Greyjoys cards are so much better than anybody elses, even Stark's who also has a good hand. Lannister just can't win a battle unless it is heavily - as in +4 - stacked in their favour. Greyjoy has Balon at a guaranteed +2, the sword at +1 and wins ties.

To me the extra ship is nice for added starting options, but addressing Balon would've been the obvious direction to take.

You have a very interesting discussion at the moment on the value of the decks held by experienced players. You may be surprised by the results (including the fact that Martell ‘s and Tyrell’s are regarded as better.

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Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
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You have a very interesting discussion at the moment on the value of the decks held by experienced players. You may be surprised by the results (including the fact that Martell ‘s and Tyrell’s are regarded as better.
I'm not sure I'd consider the discussion representative of the most experienced players in the community in any way. Only a few have voiced their opinion. And, I should note, disagreement regarding the decks have surfaced recently.

In either case, the Lannister deck is probably the worst in the game and whether or not the Greyjoy deck is the best-best in a Special tier above the rest or one of the best in the game along with maybe Tyrell's deck - Lannister's deck is multiple tiers below that.

You also fail to take into account the unique position of Lannister/Greyjoy where Greyjoy can be guaranteed gaining the upper hand in turn 1-2 by not playing like an idiot. This situation does not exist anywhere else on the board.

Thus, being able to throw Euron, Victarion and Balon for a 4, 5-6 and 6 effective combat strength (without any conditionals apart from Victarion's attacking/supporting ships, but I mean... you'll be doing that for certain) and being able to follow it up with a 2-card (Theon) with effective combat strength 3 + 1 sword when defending the early gains AS WELL as sacrificing tokens in Damphair in order to not fall for a baiting of the stronger cards. Yes. Well. All of that, might by some hipsters not be considered a deck that is a tier above the rest - but in a full-on Lannister vs. Greyjoy slash fest Lannister just loses unless they get an early clash + no early mustering.

I do not agree, however, that the ship won't change matters. But the fundamental problem is that Greyjoy had an OP deck in 1st ed and they only made it worse in 2nd ed.

Last edited by TheWarden on 2019-May-15 18:19, edited 2x in total

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"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

Agree with the above, but remain curious on how the extra ship will make much of a difference? Any examples to give?

One thing to note, if you’re playing using the MoD expansion, is all houses will have access to another ship-only move token. That means GJ can get both ships and their land units moving on turn 1. Potential to take Lannisport turn 1?

If you play defense as Lanni, put D+2 onGolden Sound, S+1 on ship in port. No way for one ship to beat def 5 even with Balon or Victarion if you send out a single ship to keep the transport.

With two you may but need to send out Balon to win sure and leave IB opened, which can be terrible with Lanni in RR.

However baiting with these two ships can be useful with Dagmer to have Tywin down... but if you meet the Mountain, ouch!

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Judge
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@Jambo: I think Necrarch put it succinctly. The extra ships opens up the oppertunity to both force Balon and require using both march ordets on the ships whilst also leaving Ironman's Bag Open og GJ wants to take the Golden Sound.

Before, GJ had access to strictly dominant strategies against all of Lannister's countermoves in turn 1 and in most cases also turn 2. Now that isn't the case since GJ taking Golden Sound turn 1 isn't such an obvious move anymore.

Why the Equal Mustering Point custom rule wasn't included in the FAQ however, doesn't make much sense.

On the board, Baratheon and Greyjoy have extra mustering points compared to the rest of the factions and they have some of the best win rates. But at least for the GJ/Lannister problem the current fix helps.

I personally think removing a mustering point from the three high win rate factions (GJ, Baratheon, Stark) is necessary to balance the game a bit more if that is what one wants.

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"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

If you play defense as Lanni, put D+2 onGolden Sound, S+1 on ship in port. No way for one ship to beat def 5 even with Balon or Victarion if you send out a single ship to keep the transport.

With two you may but need to send out Balon to win sure and leave IB opened, which can be terrible with Lanni in RR.

However baiting with these two ships can be useful with Dagmer to have Tywin down... but if you meet the Mountain, ouch!
As GJ, don't you just move to take Riverrun first, then do your double ship move to take Golden Sound?  I'm sure holding both is definitely possible given Lannister often does CP* in Lannisport.

@Jambo

The issue with taking Riverrun against a clever Lannister player is generally that they can force you to invest too many of your troops in taking it - and then they counter with a CP* in Lannister, mustering a Siege Engine and then they Clegor you.

But yes, I think it is more 'normal' to take Riverrun initially. But one mustering point extra is a mustering point extra - so I'm sure it'll move the needle a bit.

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"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

If you play defense as Lanni, put D+2 onGolden Sound, S+1 on ship in port. No way for one ship to beat def 5 even with Balon or Victarion if you send out a single ship to keep the transport.

With two you may but need to send out Balon to win sure and leave IB opened, which can be terrible with Lanni in RR.

However baiting with these two ships can be useful with Dagmer to have Tywin down... but if you meet the Mountain, ouch!
As GJ, don't you just move to take Riverrun first, then do your double ship move to take Golden Sound?  I'm sure holding both is definitely possible given Lannister often does CP* in Lannisport.

If you play defense as Lanni, put D+2 onGolden Sound, S+1 on ship in port. No way for one ship to beat def 5 even with Balon or Victarion if you send out a single ship to keep the transport.

With two you may but need to send out Balon to win sure and leave IB opened, which can be terrible with Lanni in RR.

However baiting with these two ships can be useful with Dagmer to have Tywin down... but if you meet the Mountain, ouch!
As GJ, don't you just move to take Riverrun first, then do your double ship move to take Golden Sound?  I'm sure holding both is definitely possible given Lannister often does CP* in Lannisport.

Have to say that I hardly find 6 people to play, so no chance I'll play with MoD... As for the theory crafting, I would think it may cost Vic + Balon or something like that, which could prove too expensive for the GJ if a Clash comes to lose the blade.

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Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
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Nah, Lannister also has to play high to avoid Aeron getting a cheap victory.

By the way, MoD solves the 3-4 player problem.