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Ashlander
IronStandsEternal 12 hours ago

3/6p... you are welcome to join

IronStandsEternal 12 hours ago

3/6p

IronStandsEternal 12 hours ago

2/6p

IronStandsEternal 12 hours ago

6p live game is up in case someone wants to play

D_jaja 13 hours ago

2/3

D_jaja 13 hours ago

3p live up

D_jaja 15 hours ago

2/3

D_jaja 15 hours ago

Ok no interest in 6P live, then maybe 3P?

D_jaja 15 hours ago

How much players?

JaqenHghar0 16 hours ago

pbem for beginners?

D_jaja 17 hours ago

Lets try it... 6P live up

smssf 19 hours ago

hostless 3p live

Silver Den 20 hours ago

Legend, thank you very much

Ihor 20 hours ago

Done

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hostless 3o

Silver Den 20 hours ago

interested in playing

Silver Den 20 hours ago

can one of the modders kick a player from a 3p live game? The player has been offline for a while but there are players who are

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any 3p?

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join 3p

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3plive fast or better

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BranTheBaker
Elder Brother of the Quiet Isle

Posts: 399
Games: 492
Rank Points: 3,139
Member since: 2016-Jan-19

Topic: Battle of Princes Pass
Posted: 2019-May-20 14:23
Hey all, just a question I was wondering general opinions on. In an alliance between Martell and Tyrell, who should have control over Prince's Pass?

I always feel it should be Martell, whether I play Martell or Tyrell. But I have had a number of games lately where I am Martell and Tyrell argues that they should have Prince's Pass, or games lately where I am another house and see that same situation where an alliance dissolves over this one territory.

Thoughts?
obmit
Warden Of The North

Posts: 282
Games: 319
Rank Points: 2,376
Member since: 2015-Jan-25

Topic: Battle of Princes Pass
Posted: 2019-May-20 15:16
From my point of view it should go to Martell.

- Tyrell does not need another CP area besides Dornish Marches and The Arbor. He can gain 4 pt per turn from turn 2 on if he chooses to do so and still has two fortresses to CP* once he claimed star orders. Martell on the other hand has to choose between CP and CP* in Sunspear as Boneway will be subject to raids from bara most of the time. PP is the only other save CP spot with a star available to him. And most of the time Martell will only claim that spot in turn 2 or later, starting to consolidate there no earlier than turn 3 (I know it's possible to get there in turn 1, but that strategy is seldom used in my experience).

- Tyrell has multiple ways to break out of his rather confined starting area to secure additional supply / areas (esp with loras and QoT) while Martell will have a hard time to break out of the south and conquer either shipbreaker or kingswood. Giving PP to Tyrell further limits Martells area of influence.

- PP borders two castles which belong to Martell in a southern alliance. If Tyrell holds PP this both poses a threat of raids on CP areas (further diminishing Martells already bad CP abilities) aswell as the danger of attacking deep into Martell homelands with QoT / Loras. Not a good basis for a trustful alliance.

Compare also Ser Hodors excellent summary in this thread: https://www.thronemaster.net/?goto=community&sub=forum&fid=3&tid=56854#top
Necrarch
Knight of Ni

Posts: 2,038
Games: 135
Rank Points: 1,003
Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Battle of Princes Pass
Posted: 2019-May-20 15:36
I believe a classical agreement is to leave it empty, as it breaks the supply balance between Tyrell and Martell.
Actually, Martell can usually take it safely without asking Tyrell initially.
So Tyrell should negociate to leave it empty, Martell to get it.


obmit
Warden Of The North

Posts: 282
Games: 319
Rank Points: 2,376
Member since: 2015-Jan-25

Topic: Battle of Princes Pass
Posted: 2019-May-20 16:23
Leaving PP empty really is bad for martell both with regard to CP aswell as with regard to additional options for supply. Atleast insist on a martell token there. But frankly, if Tyrell really is not willing to make a deal on PP I would rather talk to bara instead
TheWarden
Knight

Posts: 558
Games: 123
Rank Points: 647
Member since: 2014-Jul-03

Topic: Battle of Princes Pass
Posted: 2019-May-21 15:04
Prince's Path presents something akin to a soft Prisoner's Dilemma.

Neither Tyrell nor Martell.

Tyrell has access to 5 land territories and 2 sea territories which can be held more or less assuredly:

Highgarden* (2 barrels, garrison, 2 mustering points)
Oldtown (2 mustering points) - practically unraidable
Dornish Marshes* (1 crown)
Three Towers (1 barrel)
The Arbor (1 crown) - practically unraidable
Redwyne Straights* (sea) - inner sea
West Summer Sea (Sea) - outer sea

For a total of:
4 mustering points
2 crowns
3 barrels

*= starting territory

The extended Tyrell territories include 3 contested territories:

The Reach (1 mustering point) - highly contested with Baratheon, somewhat contested with Lannister
Searoad Marches (1 barrel) - highly contested with Lannister, rarely with Greyjoy
Prince's Path (1 crown, 1 barrel) - highly contested with Martell

As the Reach is normally counted as within Tyrell's sphere of influence, this brings Tyrell's total points to:

5 mustering points
2 crowns
3 barrels

Across 6 territories + 2 sea territories

This allows for Tyrell the average 5 mustering points which a board equilibrium forms, spread across 3 victory points (again, average) with 2 power tokens gained per Game of Thrones (below average solely due to the port of Oldtown being one of the only rather useless ports in game and therefore rarely with a ship mustered in it), but with one of the most secure consolidation positions in the game with one crown and one 2-mustering point territory being practically unraidable - whilst both Dornish Marshes and Highgarden are both more or less secure with The Reach under Tyrell sway.

Tyrell's 3 equilibrium barrels are 3 - again the average.

Martell has access to 5 natural land territories and 2 sea territories (markedly with a much more relevant port off the outer sea territory, Sunspear):

Sunspear* (2 mustering points, 1 barrel, 1 crown)
Salt Shore* (1 barrel)
Starfall (1 barrel, 1 mustering point)
Yronwood (1 mustering point)
The Boneway (1 crown)
Sea of Dorne* (inner sea) - notably ships from Storm's End can muster here.
East Summer Sea (outer sea) - with a port

For a total of:
4 mustering points across 3 territories
2 crowns
3 barrels

*=starting territory

Considering Martell's extended territory:

Prince's Path (1 crown, 1 barrel) - highly contested with Tyrell
Storm's End (1 mustering point) - highly contested with Baratheon

As Storm's End is generally considered Martell territory. This brings Martell up to the average 5 mustering points, but with 1 extra victory point since it is divded over 4 territories. It also brings Martell up to six 'natural' territories on land + 2 at sea

From a resource perspective, whichever of Tyrell and Martell gains Prince's Path are practically gaining an edge on the other party.

Gaining it, would bring Martell into the 4 power tokens per GoT territory (due to their ship in port, almost always) - with 2 secure places to consolidate (port and PP). Sunspear is, however, a bad place to consolidate from since it is also the main mustering place of Martell and thus it is often not feasible to play consolidate on Sunspear - unless it is special consolidate.
The 4 supply for Martell, also practically allows them to turtle themselves to a 2nd or 3rd finish almost assuredly since 4 victory points and 4 supply would be a rather unique position.

Tyrell, on the other hand, might need the crown slightly more than Martell from a pure ressource perspective - but the territory itself is not as useful to consolidate from as long as The Reach is held - except perhaps in offering Dornish Marshes up as a support hub (since HG is often a troop mustering centre and thus one wants to play marches on it) in a battle against Baratheon/Lannister for The Reach. The barrell is less critical to Tyrell, who can find an extra barrel in both Searoad and (2) in Blackwater - meanwhile Martell practically only has Prince's Path unless they are at war with Tyrell.

In an alliance, Tyrell and Martell collectively would be stronger by one of the parties taking the territory. But whichever side has the territory will be in a better position in the game. Hence, the Prisoner's Dilemma reference. Leaving it empty is often a good diplomatic deal, though, since neither Martell nor Tyrell are particularly well off when they go full armageddon on each other.


pppoe
Squire

Posts: 30
Games: 82
Rank Points: 484
Member since: 2018-Mar-03

Topic: Battle of Princes Pass
Posted: 2019-May-21 15:29
When negotiating,Martell.2 reasons:
1.Its easier for Martell to hold by putting a support in Yronwood.For Tyrell a raid from the Boneway/Reach can cancel his support in Dournish Marches and causes him to lose it.Whats more Martell is stronger than Tyrell in early game and usually earlier to claim on PP;
2.If I am Martell and Tyrell doesn't want to give me PP,I will claim a war against him and mostly I'm at the upper hand.However,when I play Tyrell,even if I plan to betray Martell at some point,I have to give me PP for now cause I can't afford a war against Martell with bad events.Giving him PP and keep myself safe for several turns and it's never too late to betray.
Nomaris
Maester without a chain

Posts: 2,446
Games: 389
Rank Points: 2,611
Member since: 2017-May-19

Topic: Battle of Princes Pass
Posted: 2019-May-21 16:09
PP should go to Martell, since

1) Martell is very vulnerable without it (bad for trust)
2) Martell has no good territories to cp without PP (reasons mentioned by obmit and TheWarden)
3) Tyrell has not much use for it except the additional barrel
4) Tyrells position is well defendable against Martell on land even without PP.

I even had a game in which Martell granted PP to me (tyrell) without me asking for it. And I never found the time and units to actually occupy it. So it was unoccupied for most of the time.

About the prisoners dilemma reference:
Unlike in the prisoners dilemma (or other game theoretic mind experiments) allies in GoT often do not only like the best for themselves, but also a good position for their ally.
For example: If I play Tyrell in a Southern alliance I want a strong Martell to put pressure on Baratheon, since then Baratheon can't threaten my position (by taking the Reach or raiding Highgarden and Dornish Marches) and maybe I can even capture Blackwater or Kings Landing from him (depending on if I want to go North or North-East).


TheWarden
Knight

Posts: 558
Games: 123
Rank Points: 647
Member since: 2014-Jul-03

Topic: Battle of Princes Pass
Posted: 2019-May-21 18:12
@Nomaris:

I think you have a point regarding Prisoner's Dilemma. I generally agree with you, but I'm not sure everyone agrees with us that furthering the cause of an alliance partner is desirable.

However, I did say it was a soft version of Prisoner's Dilemma (i.e. solvable). A true Prisoner's Dilemma is, indeed, a dilemma with no good solution from a traditional game theoretical viewpoint.


OlBeadyeyes
Squire

Posts: 23
Games: 57
Rank Points: 333
Member since: 2018-Jul-09

Topic: Battle of Princes Pass
Posted: 2019-Jul-04 17:10
I'm semi-resurrecting this thread because this trend shows no signs of abating. In my recent games as Martell, I've had three potential alliances with Tyrell scuppered now because they demanded Prince's Pass as a precondition. It's not just newbie players either, I've had experienced players demanding the region too, when they really should know better. Does anyone know where this particular meme (for lack of a better word) originated from? At the start of the year, I never once received a demand from Tyrell for Prince's Pass. Now it seems like any offer to create a southern powerhouse has a 50/50 chance of failing purely because the Tyrell player demands the province and simply will not let the matter go when I (rightly) rebuff them! Personally, I have always considered PP to be a Martell territory, but just to humour the Tyrells who keep demanding it, let's break down why each side wants it:

Martell

1. Borders two core Martell territories (Yronwood and Starfall) and one 'meh' territory (Boneway). Of these territories, one (Yronwood) is a support hub that Martell cannot risk being raided.
2. Gets Martell a third crown, vital for Game of Thrones cards to make up for their poor power generation.
3. Gets Martell a fourth barrel.

Tyrell
1. Borders two 'meh' Tyrell territories.
2. Ensures that Three Towers cannot be raided (hooray!).
3. Brings Tyrell to three crowns and four barrels (when they can already CP on The Arbor, so the crown isn't needed, and the barrel can found elsewhere).

That's it. Even at a glance, it's obvious that it should go to Martell. Plus, there's a hidden fourth reason why Martell should be allowed Prince's Pass:

4. Tyrell's initial position at the start of the game is so catastrophically bad that they are in precisely zero position to demand anything from anyone.

Here's the rub: if there's no muster and no clash in R2, Martell can absolutely, 100%, murder Tyrell, and there is nothing the Reachmen can do about it. Martell does a +1 march on their navy in ESS and bam, the pride of the Redwyne fleet has been turned to matchsticks. So, Tyrell players, the question I ask you is this:

Why the hell would you antagonise Martell!?

Ultimately, it all comes down to want vs need. Sure, Tyrell may want Prince's Pass, but Martell needs it. It reminds me of the naval arms race between Germany and Britain before WWI. Germany wanted a larger navy than Britain, but failed to recognise that Britain needed theirs to be larger than Germany's.

TL;DR: If you're playing Tyrell, don't demand Prince's Pass from Martell. You don't need it really and it's better to let the Dornish have it in order to stay in Martell's diplomatic good books. That way you can maybe get alliance out of them, and it will be the stags that get Doran'ed, not you.
Ser Hodor
Son Of Hodor

Posts: 753
Games: 1,331
Rank Points: 10,054
Member since: 2016-Mar-20

Topic: Battle of Princes Pass
Posted: 2019-Jul-04 19:08
Prince's is 100% Martell territory.  They are absolutely unsafe without it, whereas a Dornish troop there does not threaten Tyrell's strongholds, primary power generation (the Arbor), or sea defense (as Queen Of Thorns can even from a distance).

But if Tyrell insists on having it, that's fine.  I'm pretty indifferent about whether to go after him or Baratheon anyway, and that makes my decision easy.
Necrarch
Knight of Ni

Posts: 2,038
Games: 135
Rank Points: 1,003
Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Battle of Princes Pass
Posted: 2019-Jul-04 22:10
As Tyrell, I will ask for it to be left empty.

One thing though to stop the turn 2 attack from Martell though, as it is usually a second order after a M-1 in Sea of Dorne: QoT on Starfall to cancel march order in ESS.

Usually sacrifices a poor footman, but can save your flowered butt.



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