stenrnd 18 minutes ago

Does some1 want a live game?

Kaisers landing 2 h 22 min ago

6p LIVE up

Kaisers landing 2 h 40 min ago

2/6p ONLY 4 spots left gogogogogogogo

Kaisers landing 3 hours ago

6p LIVE GAME UP. Join up and lets go (today I'm ready)

Kaisers landing 3 hours ago

fast 6p live knife fight up. join in, NO PBEM

Kaisers landing 4 hours ago

6p LIVE UP!

Iyyillius 4 hours ago

oops made pbem ... its live now

Iyyillius 4 hours ago

I'll make

Iyyillius 4 hours ago

I am

Kaisers landing 5 hours ago

anyone up for 6p LIVE GAME?!

Seral 10 hours ago

Love to play a live game but at max 13 games - addicted me, lol. Pbem takes long

Ruubn 10 hours ago

live 3P up

Ruubn 10 hours ago

1P needed in 3P

Ruubn 10 hours ago

3P up

turiassu 12 hours ago

can anyone create a 6p live please?

Lord Jilakill 12 hours ago

6 p live 1 player missing !!

imrualkays 12 hours ago

1 more for llive

imrualkays 13 hours ago

2 players needed open live "game of Africa"

imrualkays 13 hours ago

6 players live up, 4 players needed !

We_do_not_sow 13 hours ago

2/3 live

What's on your mind?



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QggOne
Blacksmith

Posts: 377
Games: 55
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Member since: 2017-Feb-26

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-01 17:16
Hi,

I've done a few PBF's on thronemaster. In the future I'd like to do some shorter versions. One variant I've been working on is a four player Irish map using the counties.

Here is the basic map.

Here is the map ready to be played. As the game will have only 5 rounds lots of units are already on the map.

First side to get 6 castles/strongholds wins. The three middle counties have neutral forces to be overpowered.

In the past I've had problems with balance on maps so I'd like to know if anyone sees anything important that needs changed.


Necrarch
Blacksmith

Posts: 410
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Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-01 19:10
Seems funny.
Seas fine but I'd consider a second ship in the sea per camp.

Colours: green on green does not work. Perhaps use the rugby ones (Leinster blue, Munster red, Ulster white,  Connacht purple or black).

Actually the map may be too balanced, the camp with no star will need the sword but not sure it is enough, the one star will get throne and third on fiefdoms, the two star second on fiefdoms and last on throne, raven last on fiefdoms.

6 may be too easy to Reach for Leinster if it rushes, not sure.
That's just at first look.


QggOne
Blacksmith

Posts: 377
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Rank Points: 200
Member since: 2017-Feb-26

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-02 00:11
green on green does not work.
That was the reason I added the harp to all of the Units. Inverting the unit colours might be another solution. Having the gold as the primary colour would work better.

the camp with no star will need the sword but not sure it is enough
With the game being so short, I'm going to have the star orders as; 3, 3, 2, 1

That way no side is without stars. Yeah, the one star player (Ulster) will get the Sword, or in this case the mythical Gae Bolg spear.

I was also planning on replacing the Wildling track with rentable orders. The wildlings are slow to get going and slow down the pace of the game. Having rentable order tokens will work as a necessary drain for excess tokens. Whilst most of them are weaker than the standards (like March -2) there is a new token called Copycat which should be quite strong.

I have the sidebar nearly finished so that can be added for inspection next week.

6 may be too easy to Reach for Leinster if it rushes, not sure.
It definitely can't take 6 in the first turn. Players will have to use support tokens to help defend neutral castles in this game.


Necrarch
Blacksmith

Posts: 410
Games: 31
Rank Points: 178
Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-02 06:24
Stars : nice idea to allow 1 star for even the last player, with little CoK occasions that is better.

About decks, you probably should make smaller ones, for exemple with 5 cards, to cycle faster, e.g. 0/1/1/2/3 combat strength.

You can even have 'theme' decks:
- invader: like GJ. 1-combat Balon and 2-Victarion typically here, but little swords and towers.  Typically starts with blade.
- order manipulator: like Tyrell, with typically Loras and QoT. Possibly Robb as well.
- cycler: like Stark, with typically Roose (your WoT version which requises a unit kill is fun), a strong Eddard + Stannis like and a shit card you don't want to ever play (sorry Cat!)
- track cheater : a combo of Martell and Lanni, with typically Tywin and a softer Doran (-1 or -2 on one track hurts at 4p!).

Some fun powers like Patchface and Tyrion should also find a solder.
Would make something like 3 special / 2 icon cards per deck.

Oh, by the way, you just found your first beta tester! ^^


Nomaris
Maester without a chain

Posts: 799
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Member since: 2017-May-19

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-04 12:17
Looks very interesting.

With the changed rules and without information on track positions and house cards it is not easy to judge the balance in my opinion. But it seems to me that the green player has a distinct advantage with the neutral castles being so near to his home base. I would recommend removing either Louth or one of the two Northern neutral castles, Cavan or Westmeath.

You also have a second playtester.

PS: I think you did rather well in balancing the Wheel of Time adaption, sure there are still some imbalances, but I wouldn't say that they are bigger than in the base game.


QggOne
Blacksmith

Posts: 377
Games: 55
Rank Points: 200
Member since: 2017-Feb-26

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-12 17:36
About decks, you probably should make smaller ones, for exemple with 5 cards, to cycle faster, e.g. 0/1/1/2/3 combat strength.
I'm actually going to go in the other direction on this. The decks will be larger than normal (4,3,3,2,2,2,1,1,1,0) but they no longer cycle. Every region has a 1 - S card that can be used an infinite number of times. If you burn through your legends in the early round it'll be tougher later on. As players have more powerful armies to begin with, the legend cards are slightly stronger than standard house cards.

You can even have 'theme' decks
* Ulster - is furthest from reaching 6 castles but the region is assisted by its sword happy offensive cards and early ownership of Gae Bolg

* Connacht - is the best rounded region with decent access to 6 castles but also strong combat cards

* Leinster - is closest to 6 castles but it relies on power token supremacy to cause damage to opposition

* Munster - has fantastic supply and cards that increase in value a long with this

I would recommend removing either Louth or one of the two Northern neutral castles, Cavan or Westmeath.
My thought was that 3 castles, it is hard to keep a strong alliance going. There is always going to be strife.


Here is the sidebar view.


QggOne
Blacksmith

Posts: 377
Games: 55
Rank Points: 200
Member since: 2017-Feb-26

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-12 17:40
Legendary House Cards

Connacht
Click for details.

4 Medb - SS
3 Ailill macMáta – If Medb is discarded, this card gains +1 combat strength and a sword icon.
3 Ferdiad - STT
2 Fergus macRóich – If you are attacking and win this combat move the March Order token into the conquered area (instead of discarding it). The March Order may be resolved again later this round.
2 Cet macMágach - If opponents housecards power is 4 this card is gains +2 and 2 swords.
2 Fráech - If you are being supported in this combat, the combat strength of all other ships is reduced to zero.
1 Flidais – If you win this battle increase your supply one level.
1 Bélchú - T
1 Nera - Gain +1 combat strength for every opposing knight in the embattled area.
0 Findabair – If the opposing legendary housecard is male immediately ignore their ability and icons. (beauty)
∞1 Connacht Commander - S


Ulster
Click for details.

4 Conchobar macNessa – If you are attacking an area with a defence or support order, immediately remove it.
3 Cú Chulainn - SSST
3 Cethern macFintain – Gain a sword for each supporting footman
2 Súaltam macRóich – If you win this combat, you may upgrade any one of your footmen to a knight.
2 Furbaide Ferbend – If you win this battle destroy on opposition unit in area adjacent to the battlefield. (killed mebd from range)
2 Conall Cernach - S
1 Ness – Muster a soldier in an area bordering a river that is not currently held by an opponent.
1 Athirne Ailgheasach – If you win this battle take 3 PT from your opponent
1 Celtchar - TT
0 Cathbad – This card has the same ability and icons as one of your opponent’s unused legends.
∞1 Ulster Commander - S

Leinster
Click for details.

4 Cormac mac Airt – If the opponent has 5 (or more) fewer power tokens than you, this card gains +2.
3 Fionn mac Cumhaill – If this battle takes place on land, ignore all opposing sea support.
3 Cairbre Lifechair – If there is a CP token in the embattled area immediately remove it. If you win this battle, take 3 CP from your opponent. If you lose, transfer 3 CP to your opponent. (refused to pay money until he lost in battle)
2 Diarmuid Ua Duibhne - You may discard two power tokens to add a sword to this housecard (up to a max of 3 swords).
2 Gráinne – If you win this combat you may place a non-pooled power token into the embattled area. If you lose this combat and one of your power tokens is in the embattled area, return it to your power pool.
2 Eithne Ollamda – All your consolidate power tokens count as support+0 tokens for this combat.
1 Ciarnait – Immediately gain a power token. If Eithne is in the discard pile this card has 2 towers.
1 Dáire mac Cormaic - T
1 Alastir mac Airt - ST
0 High King Art mac Cuinn – If you win this combat, you and all other players who supported you each gain 3 power tokens.
∞1 Leinster Commander – S

Munster
Click for details.

4 Brian Boru – If the opponent is higher on the throne track, this card gains +1 and a sword.
3 Donnchad mac Briain – If the embattled area has a supply icon this card gains 2 swords. If the embattled area contains a supply icon and one of your power tokens this card gains 2 towers.
3 Gormflaith ingen Murchada – You may immediately cancel your opponent's chose House card and return it to his hand.  He must then choose a different House card to reveal.  If he has no other House cards in hand, he cannot use a House card this combat.
2 Echthighern mac Cennétig – If the opponent is lower on the supply track, this card gains +1 and a sword.
2 Murchad mac Briain – Raid an area adjacent to the embattled area.
2 Sigtrygg Silkbeard - If you have more ships in the embattled area than your opponent, each of your ships in the embattled area add an additional +1 combat strength.
1 Ulf the Quarrelsome – SSS
1 Tadc mac Briain – If you take casualties as a result of this combat you gain one muster point for each removed unit. You may use these muster points on any of your controlled areas that has a supply icon at the end of this combat.
1 Domhnall mac Briain - T
0 Maelsuthain O'Carroll – Look at the top Island cards. Shuffle up to two of the Island card decks.
∞1 Munster Commander – S


Necrarch
Blacksmith

Posts: 410
Games: 31
Rank Points: 178
Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-12 17:58
Funny cards indeed. One more thing about the 1 Strength 1 sword commander that comes back forever: I would rather have it returned every time a legend is played or when there is none left.

Indeed, it is always interesting to have the situation where one has no sword in hand and you can bait harmlessly - not possible if there is a permanent sword.

PS. Still believe green on green is a bad idea for Leinster. If you switch Leinster to Yellow, then Ulster becomes red. Much better for readability, I believe.


QggOne
Blacksmith

Posts: 377
Games: 55
Rank Points: 200
Member since: 2017-Feb-26

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-12 18:57
Yeah, I'm not finished with Leinster yet. I'm going to try light green, dark green and inverting their colours to see what works best.


Nomaris
Maester without a chain

Posts: 799
Games: 200
Rank Points: 1,412
Member since: 2017-May-19

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-13 10:11
The decks will be larger than normal (4,3,3,2,2,2,1,1,1,0) but they no longer cycle. Every region has a 1 - S card that can be used an infinite number of times. If you burn through your legends in the early round it'll be tougher later on. As players have more powerful armies to begin with, the legend cards are slightly stronger than standard house cards.
Very interesting idea. Hard to predict the balancing issues though. This will probably weaken the more central houses (for example Leinster, which is good I think).

I would recommend removing either Louth or one of the two Northern neutral castles, Cavan or Westmeath.
My thought was that 3 castles, it is hard to keep a strong alliance going. There is always going to be strife.

Yes that is true. It just seems to be easier to win by taking Louth, Cavan, Westmeath, Laois, Wicklow and Dublin than the 6 castle constellations I came up with for the other houses. Especially, since the first three of these castles can be supported from Meath and the last two seem rather secure. But I guess that theory has to be tested first.


QggOne
Blacksmith

Posts: 377
Games: 55
Rank Points: 200
Member since: 2017-Feb-26

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-15 12:48
Meath being such a great position for support is a problem. Even if the Leinster player doesn't take Westmeath or Cavan they could block other players taking them.

I don't really want to mess with the geography much as they are real world counties. I could move the Cavan castle to Leitrim. This would be beneficial for Ulster and Connacht but would make an alliance between them difficult. Donegal Bay would probably be more competitive with this.

Even if they aren't switched, Leinster should still be under pressure from almost everyone. Louth would probably be a target for Ulster.


Leased Orders


There are 5 orders that can be leased for a single turn. You do this by bidding for them (after the Island cards but before putting your orders down). Tied bids go to the player that is higher on the fiefdoms track. These are the leased orders:

- Support -1
- March -1
- Support -2
- March -2
- Copycat

Copycat copies an adjacent order. You can copy your own order or orders of rival players (even starred orders). Copycat undergoes its 'transformation' inbetween the raid order phase and the march order phase. After that the order will be treated as whatever it 'transforms' into. Similar to defence orders, copycat is only raidable by starred raid orders, not standard raids.

The leased orders replace the wildling track as a power token drain. Copycat is probably the strongest of the orders. It weakens the usefulness of the raven token slightly thanks to its unpredictability. The fiefdoms track is usually considered the weakest track, only worth investing in to get the top position. Hopefully breaking leasing ties using the fiefdoms track will give it a small boost in importance.


Nomaris
Maester without a chain

Posts: 799
Games: 200
Rank Points: 1,412
Member since: 2017-May-19

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-15 13:57
Moving the castle to Leitrim looks more balanced to me. But it is your call, I would try either variant.

Do I understand this correctly that after each Island/Westeros card phase there will be a bidding phase for the leased orders and each player makes a single bid. Then the highest bidder gets to choose one order to lease, followed by the second highest bidder, who selects one of the remaining orders and so on. Is that correct? And what happens with the last remaining order. Does it go to the highest bidder again?

Bidding on the orders can be a very interesting addition, but bidding each phase might slow down the game significantly. (Especially if you have an additional “choose leased order phase“)


QggOne
Blacksmith

Posts: 377
Games: 55
Rank Points: 200
Member since: 2017-Feb-26

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-15 15:34
It would happen after the Island card phase is completed altogether. Each player would send through all of their bids all at once. So for instance I would receive a message from each player as follows:

Leinster
- Support-1: 0
- March-1: 2
- Support-2: 0
- March-2: 0
- Copycat: 1

Connacht
- Support-1: 0
- March-1: 0
- Support-2: 0
- March-2: 1
- Copycat: 0

Munster
- Support-1: 1
- March-1: 1
- Support-2: 0
- March-2: 0
- Copycat: 3

Ulster
- Support-1: 0
- March-1: 0
- Support-2: 1
- March-2: 0
- Copycat: 3

So the leased orders that could be used are:
Leinster: March-1
Connacht: March-2
Munster: Support-1
Ulster: Support-2, copycat

You must bid on a leased order to use it so if everyone bids 0, no one gets any order. The fiefdoms in this case decided that Ulster would get copycat over poor Munster, who has spent 5 power tokens for one measly order!

Players may be tempted to play it safe and bid on Support-2 or March-2 rather than risk losing power tokens for nothing.


Nomaris
Maester without a chain

Posts: 799
Games: 200
Rank Points: 1,412
Member since: 2017-May-19

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-15 16:17
Ah, ok, that was the second possible bidding scheme I could think of. I am very interested how this works in the game. A player with superior token count theoretically could use 6 marches in one round (7 if it is Connacht). I am very curious if this enhanced mobility will be realizeable. Another interesting thing is if supp-2 will ever be used at all. The only case were this might happen is if you used up all of your support orders, but have another army with strength >=3 standing around. I guess that won't happen very often. Maybe make the leasable supports +0 and -1 instead?


Necrarch
Blacksmith

Posts: 410
Games: 31
Rank Points: 178
Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Looking Feedback on map for a 4 Player Variant
Posted: 2019-Nov-15 17:01
Indeed, more than a S-2, another option would be a 4th CP token. Works as others, but an option to win even more tokens.

So many marches can be big too. Perhaps remove leased M-1.



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