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can a game last until 10 castles instead of usual 7 castles win condition?

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klarkclan
Master Stonemason

Posts: 9
Games: 26
Rank Points: 75
Member since: 2014-Oct-18

Topic: Balancing Tyrell
Posted: 2014-Dec-09 11:46
They could have place the 2 towers on some cards that are on a lower combat strength rather than Eddard. It is unlikely anyone will contemplate using Eddard to save the units from being killed unless both are knights and it will affect the outflow of the game. In second edition, I think Starks are more thematic where their house cards are more defensive better suited to their game avoid casualties with slow build up and keep refreshing with Bolton means they are the most resilient house when under attack.

Doran is indeed over powered in second edition but if ur planning to fight Martell try to force him to commit early at least don't need to be stuck with a low position on one of the track for the rest of the game. QoT is great man especially against those pesky support from sea. Which help tyrell fight better against Bara and Martell read black water bay and sea of Dorne. Whereas in 1st Ed is a slow grind to stalemate ...
TheWarden
Knight

Posts: 558
Games: 123
Rank Points: 647
Member since: 2014-Jul-03

Topic: Balancing Tyrell
Posted: 2014-Dec-09 16:10
I think the discussion of balancing Tyrell went 'off-topic' with the Greyjoy bashing in a theoretical 2nd ed card scenario (theoretical and not hypothetical because we'll see 2nd edition cards at some point).

Let me just sum up a few opinions on Tyrell here, relevant to our current situation and dealing solely with the 6 player set-up (because 5-player is a rather rare occurrence as far as I know?):

1. Tyrell is more dependent on entirely contingent events (i.e. the human factor in people making sub-optimal moves, the situation being different already on turn 2-3, what - primarily - Baratheon and Martell does).

2. Tyrell is the weakest faction in a 6-player, especially with 2nd edition rules implemented (again, only those currently available on the web site).

3. Tyrell is, statistically, the faction doing 'worst'. (i.e., objectively, the hardest to play).

4. Tyrell does way better with preceding mustering

----------------

So, let us stop for a moment and review these three opinions. First of all, we can - I believe - easily synthesize 2. and 3. into one hypothesis (The win rate of Tyrell, compared to the 5 other factions, is lower in 6-player games - and much lower in games with 2nd ed rules implemented) and then empirically test it. We can, also, test 4., in the process and compare 2+3 and 4 for that matter.

I of course don't have access to the raw data on the site, but I have access to a number of options in regards to dependent/independent variables (the independent variable always being the win rate of Tyrell, naturally) and a N (total sample size) in the thousands.

First of all, at face value, Tyrell and Lannister are tied for the lowest mean win rate (6 player games) on Thronemaster, at 11,6%. With 314 and 315 wins, there is objectively 0% statistical difference between Lannister and Tyrell in terms of overall wins. HOWEVER, Martell is responsible for 11,7% of the wins, i.e. also objectively 0% statistical difference between the win rate of Tyrell, Martell and Lannister! Again, this was for ALL 6-playe wins on the server (N=2707). What does this tell us? Well. We can consistently (again, no access to raw data - but a high N in our mean rate means we have a rather solid foundation to claim our parameters are a good representation of the population) say that if a player controls Tyrell, Martell or Lannister - they are playing one of the factions with the lowest mean win rate.

Applying 2nd ed settings (both with and without garrisons, since choosing only one lowers N horribly), we end up at 85 and 87 wins respectively (with N=737). We're still at a very meager win rate and we still see no difference between Martell and Tyrell that we can call statistically significant (we have Lannister at 84 wins - also not statistical difference here).

We could also ask if Martell, Lannister and Tyrell are even significantly under the average win rate (at 11,6% mean win rate, when the average ought to be 1/6 = 16,66%) which isn't completely off. Using a simple binomial calculation test, we see that the probability of a faction achieving 85 wins (or less) out of 737 games is just MARGINALLY above the critical value (0.05, or 5% in a one-tailed test). Meaning that even at 11,6% - it isn't even, per standard quantitative method and good practice, a freak number for Tyrell to be at a 11,6% win rate.

So, while we can conclude that Tyrell, Martell and Lannister are all equally CONSISTENTLY placing below the average win rate, we do not a) have information on placings outside the win (which is, to be honest, rather problematic in a raking system where it matters as much whether you consistently place high - rather than your win rate alone), b) have a solid statistical foundation on which to claim that Tyrell, Martell and Lannister are underperforming significantly and - most importantly - c) there is NO evidence for Tyrell being worse off than Martell or Lannister. ON AVERAGE. Again, we're only speaking means here.

Furthermore, we should remember that this is correlation - and to a degree predictive - not causality. We can not say why this is so - it might be due to player skill, people choosing other factions, what games end up finishing etc. - rather than Tyrell being structurally less well off. We do not have the numbers to test this - although - at face value, it seems obvious that most game settings don't really change a thing for Martell/Tyrell, while a couple of game settings really change the win rate of Lannister. At the same time,although it seems unlikely that any consistent 'faction bias' is in place - we just can't know for sure.

The Stark (and dependent on settings, Greyjoy) win rate is statistically SIGNIFICANTLY above average though. Like. Freakishly so. So;

-----------

Don't buff Tyrell, nerf Stark - would be my statistically founded advise.


TheWarden
Knight

Posts: 558
Games: 123
Rank Points: 647
Member since: 2014-Jul-03

Topic: Balancing Tyrell
Posted: 2014-Dec-09 17:11
Oh. And also. That preceding mustering is better for Tyrell?

No proof of it. In fact, the entire empirical sample suggests that it is not - in fact it is better for Martell and not only relatively, but also absolutely worse for Tyrell. However, the sample size is so small that we can not validly state it statistically - only look at the face validity of the numbers.


Jambo
Master Stonemason

Posts: 48
Games: 24
Rank Points: 62
Member since: 2014-Dec-26

Topic: Balancing Tyrell
Posted: 2015-Jan-09 11:00
Stark tends to do well if Greyjoy and Lannister bash it out. It gives them freedom to 'build up', taking the regions with Power Tokens and supply up north. Then they can join the Greyjoy Lannister mash and mop up.

I think a big factor missing here is indeed siege engines. Their attacking strength really helps offset the powerful second edition cards. For Lannister in particular they offer the chance to use Gregor against an overly aggressive Greyjoy in Riverrun, as without them Lannister simply can't win any battles - I'm looking at you Balon and Aeron!

Before any rebalancing or custom options are done, we need siege engines to complete the picture.
First Sword of Braavos
Warden Of The North

Posts: 24
Games: 323
Rank Points: 1,884
Member since: 2013-Nov-09

Topic: Balancing Tyrell
Posted: 2015-Nov-19 10:22
The Tyrell/Martell battle is heavily influenced by westeros cards as house cards are basically the same. Arianne is easily blocked by queen of thorns and loras wins combats without an enemy and mace doesn't even though they have the same ability and arianne better blocks loras in second edition.
Lannister/Greyjoy has Lannister screwed because they only have one card with castles and the valyrian steel sword makes up for everything so you can save balon and you can test with dampair because greyjoy usually opens with consolidate power orders on troops and the march orders on ships. This not only allows a sure victory in the goldensound while leaving a ship in ironmans while also having the most power during a clash. So sea control, better cards and more money by round two only using one of his overpowered cards... If lanni muster siege engines he is screwed on defence at the very beginning of round two.... If Greyjoy plays it a little safe and picks the right moves it's over fast.


Harakon
Grandmaester of Reports

Posts: 3,634
Games: 903
Rank Points: 3,430
Member since: 2014-Aug-24

Topic: Balancing Tyrell
Posted: 2015-Nov-19 10:49
You are mixing 1st and 2nd ed a bit?
How does the Queen of Thorns counter Arianne in 2nd ed?
If you attack the golden sound with only one ship, you HAVE to play balon in order to win(assuming +0) march order, assuming that Lanni played a +2 defense(which is quite common).
Your -1 march order is on you port ship to move it into ironmans bay. Like this Lannister has the possibility to take RR without problems. If a mustering comes he gets 5 points compared to you 2 and you dont have balon anymore.
If you attack with both ships you are leaving Ironmans bay wide open for an early mustering from riverrun.


Harrenhall Guardian
Master Blacksmith

Posts: 3
Games: 50
Rank Points: 253
Member since: 2024-Aug-12

Topic: Balancing Tyrell
Posted: 2024-Aug-30 07:38
I love how this thread is still relevant today… I feel like people used to play a lot of 1st edition here but not anymore? I mainly play second edition and I think tyrell should get a second ship no problem. It gives some peace of mind and its not like it will allow him to dominate on the seas early


☠ Dele✝ed User

One disappeared.
One came back from the dead.

Topic: Balancing Tyrell
Posted: 2024-Aug-30 08:08
Tyrell's areas should contain more barrels and crowns definitely. And 2nd ship is a must have...
amiramir
Battle Commander

Posts: 11
Games: 344
Rank Points: 1,448
Member since: 2014-Apr-22

Topic: Balancing Tyrell
Posted: 2024-Sep-09 00:47
Take a ship from GJ port and give it to Tyrell
PMeisterGeneral
One Of The Kingsguard

Posts: 124
Games: 180
Rank Points: 959
Member since: 2019-Apr-27

Topic: Balancing Tyrell
Posted: 2024-Sep-19 22:03
Some text abilities could help. For example margery could lose the tower and gain an ability to make an immediate muster from highgarden.



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