Note: See the Kingmaking rules here: https://www.thronemaster.net/?goto=community&sub=forum&fid=2&tid=480
If two players can take a similar action to prevent a win, and neither takes the action, without any explanation (for example declared revenge), and there is no communication or agreement, then both should be guilty of Kingmaking...
If one player is significantly weaker than the other, or would be opening up a massive vulnerability to the other, it's reasonable to expect the other to make the win-preventing move. BUT it's helpful to communicate.
And sometimes you take a gamble.
Strongest_Gallic, I'm game to continue this with examples.
Shall we complicate this with a fictional but realistic scenario? Making this up as I go. I could probably make this a more probable scenario if I really thought about it, but it's an entirely possible scenario which illustrates the point well.
So the pre-clash standing, in say round 7 or 8, is as follows:
Greyjoy has 6 castles - Lanni/GJ lands including HH as a 6th castle. First winning move after clash would be to take MC from Stark, which Stark cannot defend even with the sword, etc, because GJ has a few siege engines.
Lannister cannot take anything, having a few land units that are not enough to take any castle.
Stark has his typical 4 castles and holds all the northern seas. Stark can prevent the first-move win by taking Flint's Finger.
Baratheon holds 3 castles, and can take HH from CCP.
Martell has 3 castles and no bearing on Greyjoy's castles.
Tyrell had good luck and successfully stabbed Martell in the back leading to a strong 4 castles, and holds Searoad Marches, with enough strength to take Lannisport from Greyjoy, but not defend it.
Tokens:
Greyjoy - 11
Lannister - 2
Stark - 10
Baratheon - 11
Tyrell - 16
Martell - 8
Remember, either Baratheon, Tyrell, or Stark needs to move before Greyjoy to prevent a first-move win.
It's clash time, with Baratheon being the current King, and only Baratheon or Tyrell guarantee getting ahead of Greyjoy. Stark has a good chance if Greyjoy doesn't bid all 11.
Baratheon is kind of weak, and whispers to Stark and Tyrell that he will bid 0 for the Throne and so it's their responsibility.
Tyrell, however, wants to save his tokens for the sword and raven, and informs Stark and Baratheon he will not be bidding for the throne either.
Stark does not reply to either of them, so there is no final agreement of someone accepting responsibility for bidding to prevent the win. So Baratheon and Tyrell both know the other does not intend on bidding for the throne, and must play a gambling guessing game.
For the following scenarios, I'll remove Lannister and Martell from mention as they are irrelevant. To beat Greyjoy a tie is sufficient as Baratheon decides tied bids and will not put Greyjoy ahead of a player who can prevent a win.
BIDDING SCENARIO 1:
Greyjoy bids 11, Baratheon or Tyrell bids 11, win prevented.
BIDDING SCENARIO 2:
Greyjoy bids less than 11, Baratheon or Tyrell or Stark matches or outbids, win prevented. If nobody bid 11, it was a gamble that Greyjoy wouldn't go all-in, and the gamble succeeded.
BIDDING SCENARIO 3:
Players make the same gamble as scenario 2. But Greyjoy bids 11, and nobody matches that bid, so Greyjoy wins. I believe that both Baratheon and Tyrell are guilty of Kingmaking, as both failed to prevent the move. Had one of them told the other that they would bid 11, but then failed to keep their word, only that player would have been guilty because they agreed to it.
BIDDING SCENARIO 4:
Greyjoy bids less than 11, nobody matches that bid, Greyjoy wins. Arguably, Baratheon, Tyrell, and Stark could all be guilty of Kinkmaking, as all 3 failed to prevent the move.... BUT as Stark did not have the capacity to GUARANTEE preventing the win, as Stark doesn't know that Greyjoy would bid less than 11, Stark in my opinion is not guilty of Kinkmaking, as Baratheon or Tyrell are the only ones who could guarantee it. Baratheon and Tyrell both tried to force Stark to bid, and gambled on Greyjoy not going all-in... but while their guess was correct, Stark did not act. Still B&T's fault, I think.
ALTERNATIVE STORY SCENARIO:
Unlike in the above story, Stark replies to them both and explicitly agrees to go all-in, bidding 10 and hoping that Greyjoy will not go all-in with 11. Tyrell and Baratheon bid 0, both taking that gamble too.
A: IF GREYJOY BIDS LESS THAN 10: Win prevented, their gamble paid off.
B: IF GREYJOY BIDS 11: Tyrell and Baratheon are both guilty of Kingmaking.
C: IF GREYJOY BIDS LESS THAN 11, BUT STARK LIED AND BIDS 0 TOO: Let's say Stark thought that Baratheon was bluffing him and was going to bid 11 anyway and just wanted Stark to waste his tokes so that Stark doesn't get the sword. So Stark agrees to bid 10, but instead of bids 0. Greyjoy bids 8 or 9 tokens and wins the game, of course. Who is guilty of Kingmaking? I would say Stark, because he agreed to bet 10, but failed to do so.
Thoughts? I could go on forever lol. If I put this much thought into games when I'm playing, I might actually win some.
