sydneygas 36 minutes ago

one more again

sydneygas 59 minutes ago

one more needed

sydneygas 1 h 2 min ago

3p live is up

D_jaja 1 h 2 min ago

Silver Den game started

D_jaja 1 h 33 min ago

2/3

D_jaja 1 h 40 min ago

3p live up

IronStandsEternal 15 hours ago

3/6p... you are welcome to join

IronStandsEternal 15 hours ago

3/6p

IronStandsEternal 15 hours ago

2/6p

IronStandsEternal 15 hours ago

6p live game is up in case someone wants to play

D_jaja 15 hours ago

2/3

D_jaja 15 hours ago

3p live up

D_jaja 18 hours ago

2/3

D_jaja 18 hours ago

Ok no interest in 6P live, then maybe 3P?

D_jaja 18 hours ago

How much players?

JaqenHghar0 19 hours ago

pbem for beginners?

D_jaja 20 hours ago

Lets try it... 6P live up

smssf 22 hours ago

hostless 3p live

Silver Den 23 hours ago

Legend, thank you very much

Ihor 23 hours ago

Done

Use me, make me your animal.



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Wellerson Gaiozo
Knight

Posts: 66
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Member since: 2016-Nov-15

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-04 20:36
Hi guys, I watched this youtube channel where there's an interesting theory about Jon Snow's parentage.

Click for details.
They started arguing about the year of the events in Tower of Joy compared with Jon Snow's age. And they conclude the baby in ToJ is not Jon, but Aegon Targaryen, the same that invaded Westeros in DwD. They are very meticulous. I did not analysed everything and I don't know if this will happen, but it makes some sense. What do you think guys?

That's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8LmXyI1PH0&list=PLQrZpjVj947iED_JCrqwGFW1VkchOnl1f&ab_channel=TheOrderoftheGreenHand
ElPopelos
Keeper of the Forbidden Wilds

Posts: 3,874
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Member since: 2013-Feb-01

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-04 21:35
First of all, please always use spoilers to hide spoilers and dont try to spoil a topic with a title. I changed it for now.

You do this with [/spoiler][/spoiler] (remove he first "/".

Now to your theory:
[spoiler]Its obviously Ned Stark who fights at the ToJ and the timing + dialogues match perfectly for the said circumstances. Also, i have absolutely no idea on what fundament this theory is supposed to base on.[/spoiler]


Wellerson Gaiozo
Knight

Posts: 66
Games: 132
Rank Points: 638
Member since: 2016-Nov-15

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-04 22:33
First of all, please always use spoilers to hide spoilers and dont try to spoil a topic with a title. I changed it for now.

I'm sorry. I'll do this.

In few words:

Click for details.

Ned had a son with Ashara Dayne before he marriage with Catelyn. In ToJ, Lyanna asked Ned to protect her baby. The baby is her son with Rhaegar. Then Ned goes to Starfall to see his son (Jon) and ask Ashara Dayne to go to Essos and protect Lyanna's baby. Sending Ashara to Essos was the only way to protect a baby with a Targaryen apperance.

Thenn Ned takes Jon (his bastard son) to the north, aparting him from his mother (Ashara). That's why Ned feels such a guilty when thinking about Jon and his mother. In Essos, Ashara pretends to be a septa (Lemore) and protects the baby until he gets age. The baby is Aegon Targaryen.

JotaPe
Blacksmith

Posts: 6
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Member since: 2016-Jan-01

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-07 08:16
Click for details.
That would be a huge plot twist since the show apparently confirmed otherwise. No one would expect that I think.
I'm yet to watch the video you linked about the timelines, but if this is true, who is Aegon Targaryen who was sent to Essos with Ashara. Where is he now? You said he was the one who invaded Westeros in DwD... sorry, I never really read the books.
Can you explain it to me?
So, also Jon isn't really the heir to the Iron Throne. Who can prove this birth if Ned is dead? Bran Stark? Why did he not see this before?
Cheers!
Harakon
Grandmaester of Reports

Posts: 3,634
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Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-07 10:18
Click for details.
In the books Tyrion is travelling with a group down the Meander. This group consists of ppl who come out to be Jon Connington and a young boy whos name is Aegon. Jon Connington was a former hand of the king from Aerys and was sent into exile. Aegon wasnt killed by the Mountain, they put a boy from Flea Bottom at his place instead.
(Short Version)

Dont saw the video yet but I dont think this will come true. The showrunners had to guess the mother of Jon right before Martin gave them the rights for the show. Also: While it differs in small parts from the books, the main story will remain the same. Changing the heirtage of Jon would be a major difference.


Lord Hightower
Voice of Oldtown

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Member since: 2015-Nov-23

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-07 12:41
Click for details.
My two cents: The whole saga is called a Song of Ice and Fire, and many people interpret it as Dany and Jon, but I honestly think Ice and Fire is Jon Snow himself, nobody else needed in the equation. Obviously, because of the parentage. And in the books it is not confirmed yet that he is the son or Rhaegar and Lyanna, however, there are a lot of hints at it. Like how the direwolves reflect their owners, and Ghost is an albino, as in... white fur and red eyes? Or Ygritte, "kissed by fire" and obviously "kissed" by Snow too? Lot of these subtle or not so subtle hints are there that I really think are there on purpose. Martin rarely does things by accident.

Also, it would be super weird to call a series of 7 books a Song of Ice and Fire with the main character not even appearing until book 5, and not even getting an own POV chapter at all. It would not make sense at all to me.

And as of Ned Stark, he is a man of honor. This obviously is just speculation, but if he indeed had a bastard son, he would do everything he can just to not let Catelyn face this fact every single day. He probably would have left him with one of his friends from Robert's rebellion to grow up with, whom he trusts will be good to him. And all the guilt is most probably because he had to live his life in a constant LIE to his wife, family, and also his best friend Robert Baratheon, not to mention the whole realm. Now that's a burden. To me this is sufficient enough not to question Jon Snow's parentage.

Also, the video you linked uses the term "birthday" a lot, which is not something they have, technically speaking, because they call them name days.
So by not using the correct terminology it immediately lost all credibility to me


JotaPe
Blacksmith

Posts: 6
Games: 66
Rank Points: 162
Member since: 2016-Jan-01

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-07 17:30
Click for details.
My two cents: The whole saga is called a Song of Ice and Fire, and many people interpret it as Dany and Jon, but I honestly think Ice and Fire is Jon Snow himself, nobody else needed in the equation. Obviously, because of the parentage. And in the books it is not confirmed yet that he is the son or Rhaegar and Lyanna, however, there are a lot of hints at it. Like how the direwolves reflect their owners, and Ghost is an albino, as in... white fur and red eyes? Or Ygritte, "kissed by fire" and obviously "kissed" by Snow too? Lot of these subtle or not so subtle hints are there that I really think are there on purpose. Martin rarely does things by accident.

Also, it would be super weird to call a series of 7 books a Song of Ice and Fire with the main character not even appearing until book 5, and not even getting an own POV chapter at all. It would not make sense at all to me.

And as of Ned Stark, he is a man of honor. This obviously is just speculation, but if he indeed had a bastard son, he would do everything he can just to not let Catelyn face this fact every single day. He probably would have left him with one of his friends from Robert's rebellion to grow up with, whom he trusts will be good to him. And all the guilt is most probably because he had to live his life in a constant LIE to his wife, family, and also his best friend Robert Baratheon, not to mention the whole realm. Now that's a burden. To me this is sufficient enough not to question Jon Snow's parentage.

Also, the video you linked uses the term "birthday" a lot, which is not something they have, technically speaking, because they call them name days.
So by not using the correct terminology it immediately lost all credibility to me

Click for details.
Why do you think Ned never trusted/told Catelyn the truth about Jon?
Harakon
Grandmaester of Reports

Posts: 3,634
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Member since: 2014-Aug-24

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-07 18:17

Click for details.
Why do you think Ned never trusted/told Catelyn the truth about Jon?

Click for details.

Because a secret is best kept a secret when NOBODY knows. Also he did not know her when they married as she was promised to his older brother. Her marriage was happy, but they did not love each other like we would define it today.

Also would it have been to suspicious. Why would a noble Lady Tully treat the bastard of her husband well, who is a threat to her children in terms of heirtage.


JotaPe
Blacksmith

Posts: 6
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Member since: 2016-Jan-01

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-07 19:07
Click for details.
Ned kept is promised very well.
So, where is Rowland Reed? (one of the few people to know the truth)
Do you think Benjen Stark also might know? (I don't believe he's dead).
Also, there's a theory that says Ned wasn't the one who got killed but Syrio Forel, wearing his face as a Faceless Man.

Sorry, I'm spamming a topic which isn't mine. But I love to discuss this speculations...
Harakon
Grandmaester of Reports

Posts: 3,634
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Member since: 2014-Aug-24

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-07 21:07
Click for details.
Rowland Reed should be at Greywater Watch and if he knows is questionable at best. He only knows that Ned brought a baby back from the tower. So he could know that Jon is the son of Lyanna but nothing more.
How should Benjen know that? If he is dead is questionable aswell. I saw a picture of notes where GRRM denied that Coldhands was/is Benjen. It was just handy for the show.
Why should Syrio be a faceless man and why should he wear the mask of Ned? Also Ned would need to dead for a faceless man to wear his mask. They dont take faces from the living. Not to mention that they are both quite dead....

Sorry to tell you this but sooooo many youtube channels just jump to the craziest and far streched theories because they look good on a Title and generate clicks.


ElPopelos
Keeper of the Forbidden Wilds

Posts: 3,874
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Member since: 2013-Feb-01

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-07 21:13
I completely have to agree with Harakon.
Only because there is a theoretically chance, that something can happen, doesnt mean that its realistic.

Also, JRRM is usually not working any magic for super surprising turns of events. Thats what made his books so great and thrilling.

I dont think we need to use spoileres from here on anymore. Whoever scrolls up to here should really know whats up.


☠ Dele✝ed User

One disappeared.
One came back from the dead.

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-07 21:37
Click for details.
@Lord Hightower@Wellerson Gaiozo#JonandNed#parenthood: . . . moreover, the "[Lyanna:] Promise me Ned"-topic throughout the Eddard-chapters would appear a bit too often but wouldn't bear any meaning, would they?
JotaPe
Blacksmith

Posts: 6
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Member since: 2016-Jan-01

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-07 23:59
Rowland Reed should be at Greywater Watch and if he knows is questionable at best. He only knows that Ned brought a baby back from the tower. So he could know that Jon is the son of Lyanna but nothing more.
How should Benjen know that? If he is dead is questionable aswell. I saw a picture of notes where GRRM denied that Coldhands was/is Benjen. It was just handy for the show.
Why should Syrio be a faceless man and why should he wear the mask of Ned? Also Ned would need to dead for a faceless man to wear his mask. They dont take faces from the living. Not to mention that they are both quite dead....

Sorry to tell you this but sooooo many youtube channels just jump to the craziest and far streched theories because they look good on a Title and generate clicks.

1st - "How should Benjen know that?":
Isn't that impossible that Ned told this to Benjen at any time?

2nd - "I saw a picture of notes where GRRM denied that Coldhands was/is Benjen. It was just handy for the show.":
There is the theory that Bran is actually Coldhands, as well. Bran had a vision of Coldhands being created and part of him got "stuck" inside of Coldhands.
The Children of the Forrest thought that Bran saw the vision of them creating the first white walkers but in fact he saw the vision of the Children creating Coldhands so this one could lead and control the white walkers, which already existed at the time and got out of control.
Theories are everywhere.

3rd - "Why should Syrio be a faceless man and why should he wear the mask of Ned? Also Ned would need to dead for a faceless man to wear his mask. They dont take faces from the living. Not to mention that they are both quite dead....":
Actually, Jaqen H'ghar and Arya proved this to be wrong when he wears her face in the House of Black and White, although she was alive.

4rd - "Sorry to tell you this but sooooo many youtube channels just jump to the craziest and far streched theories because they look good on a Title and generate clicks.":
Don't be sorry, I know those Youtubers.
I never read the books, I just watched the show, but I follow just 1 Youtuber (Alt Shift X) who read the books back and forward. All his theories have a proved base sustaining it, but he doesn't make them a FACT. That shouldn't hurt anyone... Besides, it wouldn't be the first time that a theory he made would become true in the show.



I completely have to agree with Harakon.
Only because there is a theoretically chance, that something can happen, doesnt mean that its realistic.

Also, JRRM is usually not working any magic for super surprising turns of events. Thats what made his books so great and thrilling.

I dont think we need to use spoileres from here on anymore. Whoever scrolls up to here should really know whats up.

"Also, JRRM is usually not working any magic for super surprising turns of events.":
If GRRM doesn't use any magic, how does Beric Dondarrion resurrects? How does Lady Stoneheart exist?
Also, I don't care what GRRM writes in the 6th book. The show is way ahead of the books and following its own path. It may use events more dramatically than in the books. For instance, some characters that are already dead in the show (Cersei blowing up the Sept), are still alive in the books.
☠ Dele✝ed User

One disappeared.
One came back from the dead.

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-08 00:28
Click for details.
@JotaPe@Harakon@ElPopelos#jonnedandhowland#parenthood: That still doesn't add up, does it? But now that you've answered and regarding Howland Reed: Meera and Jon are at the same age when they appear in the books. I always wondered how Howland managed to get his wife pregnant if he was accompanying Eddard in the battles of Robert's rebellion all the time?
JotaPe
Blacksmith

Posts: 6
Games: 66
Rank Points: 162
Member since: 2016-Jan-01

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-08 00:39
Click for details.
@JotaPe@Harakon@ElPopelos#jonnedandrowland#parenthood: That still doesn't add up, does it? But now that you've answered and regarding Rowland Reed: Meera and Jon are at the same age when they appear in the books. I always wondered how Rowland managed to get his wife pregnant if he was accompanying Eddard in the battles of Robert's rebellion all the time?

If Rhaegar Targaryen had time to marry and get Lyanna Stark pregnant, I think Howland Reed also might have had time to get his wife pregnant too, no?
I know he would have to go to the North, but the duty calls xD
Lord Hightower
Voice of Oldtown

Posts: 508
Games: 165
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Member since: 2015-Nov-23

Topic: Who is Jon Snow?! (SPOILER)
Posted: 2017-Oct-08 13:34
@JotaPe

First of all, to be clear, I think this thread is mainly based on the book lore, and not on the show, so whatever happened on the show is questionable, at best. So, breaking it down:

Click for details.


2nd - "I saw a picture of notes where GRRM denied that Coldhands was/is Benjen. It was just handy for the show.":
There is the theory that Bran is actually Coldhands, as well. Bran had a vision of Coldhands being created and part of him got "stuck" inside of Coldhands.
The Children of the Forrest thought that Bran saw the vision of them creating the first white walkers but in fact he saw the vision of the Children creating Coldhands so this one could lead and control the white walkers, which already existed at the time and got out of control.
Theories are everywhere.

As far as I recall, he had no such vision in the books, so I would not base any theories on this one.

3rd - "Why should Syrio be a faceless man and why should he wear the mask of Ned? Also Ned would need to dead for a faceless man to wear his mask. They dont take faces from the living. Not to mention that they are both quite dead....":
Actually, Jaqen H'ghar and Arya proved this to be wrong when he wears her face in the House of Black and White, although she was alive.

Again, this only happens in the show. In the books, the "Kindly Old Man", whom Arya meets in the House of Black and White denies even knowing someone of the name Jaqen H'ghar, nevertheless taking his physical form. And it is quite clear that they skin dead people for the faces they wear. And also, there is an incontinuity in the show as well, as we see Arya in Season 7 having different skins that she can put on, that would confirm the mechanics of their illusion. Even though the more experienced faceless men can quickly change their looks, they definitely need the masks. Also, in the books, Pate in Oldtown dies in the Prologue, then somebody with a matching appearance shows up later on... Heavily suggesting that you have to be dead to be turned into a face for the faceless men. Again, the showrunners ruined everything and got fans rather confused in my opinion with their carelessness.


"Also, JRRM is usually not working any magic for super surprising turns of events.":
If GRRM doesn't use any magic, how does Beric Dondarrion resurrects? How does Lady Stoneheart exist?
Also, I don't care what GRRM writes in the 6th book. The show is way ahead of the books and following its own path. It may use events more dramatically than in the books. For instance, some characters that are already dead in the show (Cersei blowing up the Sept), are still alive in the books.

I think ElPopelos did not phrase it perfectly what he was trying to say. I think he only meant the MAJOR turning events, like Bran's fall, Ned's exeecution, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding (Joffrey and Margaery), Cersei going to prison, etc. Yes, there is magic, yes, there is some magic in big turning points (Dany's dragons being hatched, Renly being murdered, Catelyn's resurrection) but nothing that is not at least foreshadowed. Bringing Catelyn Stark back from the dead was way after the Red God's resurrection was explained. And also Arya had a "dream" (basically warging into Nymeria) where Nymeria finds the body of Catelyn, so it was all hinted at. But Ned's execution was way before the Faceless Men ever made an appearance in the books/show, so it would really be out of GRRM's style to solve it that way. And also, everyone was kind of expecting King Jojo to let Ned go to the Wall, even Cersei gave him this advised, and even she was surprised at Joffrey's decision. So if nobody expected him to die... why would they swap him?

And a personal note, Off topic in the Off topic section: I really think Syrio indeed was a faceless men, mostly because of the phrases he uses when speaking with Arya. They hint at it at least, but you know, we will probably never know it for sure. But if you really think about it, it feels like Arya was kind of targeted by the Faceless Men if we count Syrio as a FM. I mean... why would a FM try and go to the Wall with Yoren and Co., then, when set free, not proceed towards the Wall, but going the same way Arya does? The Faceless Men have missions, and they do everything to complete their tasks. They are skilled killers, so if Jaqen indeed had to go to the Wall, he would have ended up at the Wall. Instead, he surprisingly went the same way Arya did. I know he kinda felt like he owed the 3 lives to the God of Death because Arya took them from him, but still... they only move when they have a mission, they don't just wander around. So I really don't understand why he would take that journey. And eventually, based on the descriptions of some unnamed characters, leave the coin with Arya, then go to Oldtown... I mean, if he really had to go to Oldtown first, he would have gone straigth there, and not start travelling North... Rant over.

And to all of you, for the love of God, I am so, so, so sensitive to the details, please stop abusing Howland Reed by calling him Rowland


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