BALANCE PROBLEMS

If the game is played by expert players, win rates are probably really about similar. However, I would like to hear your opinion on how to change the game if you play it at home with some friends who are inexperienced. For me, it is hard to get 6 people to play the game for 5-7 hours. As a result, we don't play often and there are always some new participants that have never played the game before. Needless to say that in this situation the game is not balanced at all. For example, when two new players play Lannister and Greyjoy, the one playing Lannister gets totally crushed as this house is hard to play and you can not afford to make any mistakes. Also even though I place the newest players to play Greyjoy and Stark, they nevertheless always have a very good game.

These are current statistics from this website (2nd edition):

Greyjoy: 24.8%
Stark: 23.4%
Baratheon: 18.2%
---------------------------------
Martell: 13.9%
Tyrell: 10.1%
Lannister: 9.7%

If they had equal win rate, win rate for each house would be 16.6%.

Therefore, I would like to change house cards and give new players around the same chance of winning for all houses. We will play standard 2nd edition Game of Thrones. There are some rules I would like to impose on you when making such changes:

1.) Only swaps between standard and DWD house cards are allowed
I don't want to hear suggestions about changing borders, territory symbols, changing combat strength of different cards (like Balon is 1 combat strength instead of 2)... I simply want to hear suggestions regarding swapping some standard house cards for DwD house cards.

2.) Characters are not allowed to duplicate in the deck
Do not build a deck where Stark has Roose Bolton (2 strength) and DwD Roose Bolton (4 strength) as characters are duplicating.

3.) Not too many changes
Don't change the entire standard deck. Maybe swap 0-2 cards per house. 3 at max!

4.) No auto-win/OP mechanics
There is nothing wrong with cards that counter one another like Ariana counters Loras and maybe DwD Quen of Thorns counters Ariana. However, I don't like OP cards like Balon that can be countered only in specific circumstances (Catelly Stark, Kevan Lannister) and are mostly autowin.

Here is what my group came with so far. Please present your suggested changes in this format.

PROPOSITION

Changes are marked with blue color.

Baratheon:
The one house that is the very close to 16.6% win ratio. It is hard for them to get supply, nevertheless they will usually have plenty of power tokens and be able to get good track position. Also they can assist in case one house becomes so strong.
As a result I would not make any changes to this house.

Martell:
Hard to break out and hard to invade. They seem to be weak in power production. As a result we changed Nymeria Sand with Ser Gerris Drinkwater. Now Martell has agressive playstyle with many swords and fords only on high value cards. Doran Martell and Ser Gerris Drinkwater ensure Martell can increase position on influence tracks regardless of power production problems.

Tyrell:
Weak at start as they don't have any stars. They depend on mustering or clash of kings. Another weakness is that other players do not attack with footman, but rather with knights so Mace Tyrell is useless. Also players tend to attack Tyrell and delibrately use a low house card as they know if Tyrell chooses Loras (3) or Mace (4), he will be unable to cause casualties and will waste high cards. This is why we changed standard Mace Tyrell with DwD Mace Tyrell that has a sword and a ford. This is usefull for sea battles and now opponents are risking losing a unit. Another changes were made regarding 0 and 1 cards. Now we introduced DwD Margary Tyrell (0) and DwD Quen of Thorns (1). DwD Quen of Thorns is nice addition as Martell, Bara and Lannister have soo many good text ability. Now Tyrell and Martell cancel each other out. Ariana cancels Loras and DwD Quen of Thorns cancels Ariana, Doran... DwD Margary Tyrell is there as it is necessary to replace 0 card. Not so usefull, but can be critical in defence sometimes.

Greyjoy:
The eternal Lannister/Greyjoy conflict. In my experience if they decide to fight each other I have to literally tell Lannister what he has to do in order to not getting devasteted. It is not interesting for anyone. We decided to get rid of Balon Greyjoy and replace him with Rodrick the Reader. OP card is gone and new card is one of the best 2 card in the game. Greyjoy can force muster, supply, clash of kings etc. This is very strong. Other cards are unchanged and are still good for winning battles.

Lannister:
Since Greyjoy lost Balon, not much change is neeeded. We replaced Kevin Lannister with Ser Addam Marbrand. This is becaue Lannister struggles in the middle of the board and so he needs something for the late game.

Stark:
I left this for the end as it is the hardest one to change. Stark is always strong in our games. The ability to replenish your hand and defence cards are making him a formidable opponent. Since taking away Roose Bolton would totally change the playstyle, we nerfed one sword card and took away one defence card. Instead of Greation Umber we gave Stark Steelshands Walton (one fortification), instead of Ser Rodrick Cassel we gave him Damond Dance-For-Me (one sword) and instead of The Blackfish we gave him Walder Fray (if any other player gave support to your opponent, he must give you this support instead). This way Stark does not have swords only on Eddard (4) and lose his ability to retreat without losing forces twice (now he will take more casualties).

LAST REMARKS
Stark/Greyjoy/Lannister balance is probably the most important one as Greyjoy is a militant house and has to attack somebody in order to progress. Now with Balon gone Lannister has a chance. At the same time, Stark has only one house card with fortification so he takes casualties more often when fighting Greyjoy.
What do you guys think?

Last edited by franc on 2019-Feb-01 09:00, edited 3x in total

As I said before, my playgroup does not want to change a map or number of units on the board. We would like to balance the game only by swapping house cards.

As I said before, my playgroup does not want to change a map or number of units on the board. We would like to balance the game only by swapping house cards.
Your limitations on the changes, including only swapping cards and not even changing how a card works, are making it nearly impossible for me to help you here. If these are your limitations, accept the fact it won't bring what you want.

What we as a group do is balance the game two ways:
1) Players pick their houses and expert players pick the harder ones. An experienced Lannister vs a new GJ is a fair fight actually. Especially as then Stark should not bother GJ too much. Thus a new player can be Stark without 'having' to fight turn 2.

2) If we see someone being too inactive, or overrunning someone else, the other players step in and will fight where needed.

But if you don't want any of these sort of changes and hope card changes do the trick for you, I don't see how.

It is because I am bored to play Lannister every game. If I don't play Lannister, I have to tell the player playing Lannister what to do or he gets obliterated. So this is why I want to swap house cards.
We don't want to change the meaning of the cards or change the terrain as the game itself is already confusing enough for new players.

It is because I am bored to play Lannister every game. If I don't play Lannister, I have to tell the player playing Lannister what to do or he gets obliterated. So this is why I want to swap house cards.
We don't want to change the meaning of the cards or change the terrain as the game itself is already confusing enough for new players.
I understand why you don't want to be Lannister every game. And changing symbols is confusing. However, there are other ways you can change the game a little.

For example, you could have GJ stark with 1 less ship (none in port). Or you have him start with two footmen instead of a knight and footmen. Changes like these slow down GJ without being a rule change.

For Stark in theory you could also have him start with a footmen less. But I feel Stark is less of the problem. The main issue is that GJ can really spoil a game for someone (Lannister). Stark can't do that, he wins a lot by being a turtle. That is strong, but doesn't spoil the game for others. And baratheon isn't a big spoiler either.

It is because I am bored to play Lannister every game. If I don't play Lannister, I have to tell the player playing Lannister what to do or he gets obliterated. So this is why I want to swap house cards.
We don't want to change the meaning of the cards or change the terrain as the game itself is already confusing enough for new players.
I understand why you don't want to be Lannister every game. And changing symbols is confusing. However, there are other ways you can change the game a little.

For example, you could have GJ stark with 1 less ship (none in port). Or you have him start with two footmen instead of a knight and footmen. Changes like these slow down GJ without being a rule change.

For Stark in theory you could also have him start with a footmen less. But I feel Stark is less of the problem. The main issue is that GJ can really spoil a game for someone (Lannister). Stark can't do that, he wins a lot by being a turtle. That is strong, but doesn't spoil the game for others. And baratheon isn't a big spoiler either.
Yeah, Bara is probably the most balanced house. Regarding taking ship or footman away from Greyjoy, it might slow him down a little bit. Nevertheless, if you look at stats some houses still have it a lot easier. As said before, even new people playing Stark do really well.
The reason we changed house cards a little bit is because we never saw Lannister, Martell or Tyrell win the game. And I guess stats on this site confirm there are imbalances.
Even if Greyjoy is stopped a little in the beginning, this can't change the fact that he has best house cards in the game.

These are my 2 cents on the topic. I know eveyone can introduce some houserules. I wanted to know if there are other people, who figured out more balanced version while changing house cards.

Last edited by franc on 2019-Feb-01 15:57, edited 3x in total

Nevertheless, if you look at stats some houses still have it a lot easier. As said before, even new people playing Stark do really well.
I agree, however, I find this much less of a problem then GJ. If a new player plays Stark and more experienced players play Baratheon and GJ, Stark will not have a good game. The moment GJ choose to go north round 1, Stark's winrate drops extremly. This actually means that placing a new player as GJ makes the game easier for Stark.

And GJ has the best crads to take stuff from others. He has horrible cards to kill stuff with. Also, loose Balon and you're not that powerfull. Vic is great if you attack on sea, otherwise just a 3 card without any effect. Both Stark and Lannister have great options of killing stuff from GJ:

- Stark has Eddard with two swords, GJ lacks towers.
- Stark can use Robb to rout units horrible and kill them after.
- Lannister has three swords on a 3 card, ouch.

My point is GJ has strong cards, but if you force him to use them and them come back swinging swords, he is worse off in the end. The main reason GJ is so strong is sword+cards+aggresive opening. Take that away from him and you're fine.

Anyway, I don't see a good way with only changing cards under your rules to balance the game a lot better. But if others do, I am interested

Nevertheless, if you look at stats some houses still have it a lot easier. As said before, even new people playing Stark do really well.
I agree, however, I find this much less of a problem then GJ. If a new player plays Stark and more experienced players play Baratheon and GJ, Stark will not have a good game. The moment GJ choose to go north round 1, Stark's winrate drops extremly. This actually means that placing a new player as GJ makes the game easier for Stark.

And GJ has the best crads to take stuff from others. He has horrible cards to kill stuff with. Also, loose Balon and you're not that powerfull. Vic is great if you attack on sea, otherwise just a 3 card without any effect. Both Stark and Lannister have great options of killing stuff from GJ:

- Stark has Eddard with two swords, GJ lacks towers.
- Stark can use Robb to rout units horrible and kill them after.
- Lannister has three swords on a 3 card, ouch.

My point is GJ has strong cards, but if you force him to use them and them come back swinging swords, he is worse off in the end. The main reason GJ is so strong is sword+cards+aggresive opening. Take that away from him and you're fine.

Anyway, I don't see a good way with only changing cards under your rules to balance the game a lot better. But if others do, I am interested
True, maybe this is the reason Stark is so powerfull. Greyjoy is always new player and attack Lannister right away. Giving Stark the north. At the same time Bara and Martell usually fight for Storms Ends and so Stark can grow unopposed ?

I have the same problem. Always new people in the game. I used to propose to them to play Greyjoy or stark (and sometimes Martell). The result was that Greyjoy always attacked Lannister and Stark developed slowly but very safely.

Now I sometimes play Greyjoy myself and take BOI and Stoney Shore.. Or I explain at the beginning of the game, that balancing is important and that an early war between two fractions often leaves them both weak. If it is still not clear, I show this in the example of greyjoy and lannister and randomly mention how greyjoy also took winterfell in the books.

Heavily built on my suggestions and stats/thoughts I used:
https://www.thronemaster.net/?goto=community&sub=forum&fid=3&tid=43552#top

Nice referencing @franc.

@Frode789 I would like to stress out two things:

1.) Majority of my proposed changes are different than what you proposed

DwD Mace Tyrell and DwD Rodrich the Reader are actually such natural changes that you are not the only one who got this idea.
Regarding Ser Addam Marbrand and Ser Gerris Drinkwater it is true I got inspiration from your post.
Since now Martell has so many sneaky text cards, I gave Tyrell Quen of Thorns, which you did not propose. I think this is nice because now Tyrell can cancel one of Martells sneaky text cards. DwD Margaery Tyrell also helps with your complaint how Martell can invade Tyrell. With this card, you can successfully defend your home territory. I disagree with your proposition of introducing Paxter Redwine as this gives Tyrell to much advantage in the later stages of the game and does not help at the beginning to defend against Martell.
Changes to Stark are 100% my idea and I did not find anybody else proposing a similar change. I think standard Stark house cards are needed in case he fights Greyjoy. However, now that Balon is gone, it is necessary to nerf Stark. If he keeps Roose Bolton, other cards needed to be nerfed.

2.) Since I am not writing an academic paper I did not cite all sources I checked and got inspiration from

I have read all post on strategy forum, including yours. Of course, it inspired me to some extent, however, I also read all other balancing proposals I could find on the internet. Out of each one I took something and thought about it. I don't feel this is a special report where I have to cite all the posts I got ideas from.

Regards

Last edited by franc on 2019-Feb-04 13:30, edited 3x in total

Hello Franc and Frode,

I have read in both your posts and fund there very interesting ideas as for game balancing.

I am new on Thronemaster, but have done a certain amount of games IRL, and also participated in the balancing of a Civilization-like game at some point in time, so find these discussions highly interesting, if I may add my two cents.

1- About balancing :

There is a lot to be said on the balancing of that kind of games but, some of it are :

> Balancing is always a very subtle task. As an example, if you rebalance a bit the Lannister / Greyjoy trend (I'll use that one as an example, but of course others like Tyrell/Martell can be valid), the Greyjoy will more often go north, and the Stark's high win rate will probably go down a bit even if you have changed nothing about them directly.

> The notion of meta-game enters in the play quite quickly. Past a few games as beginners, everyone knows that Lannister is in a weak spot. So will less likely attack them early if not playing Greyjoy (e.g. as Bara or Tyrell). That's also why there is less "unbalance" in the stats when you go at a higher level of experience :

a- People play better and obviously a good Lannister is harder to beat than a poor one.
b- If other players know that the Lannisters usually have trouble, they will be less likely to undermine him. Usually, Baratheon, Tyrell and sometimes even Stark leave Lannister quiet at least for the first five turns.

But is balancing still required ? I think it is useful as an option, but if you don't force people to use it when they want to play vanilla. In our Lanni/Greyjoy case, I believe it is useful, especially considering that their relationship is very unbalanced : if the Greyjoy wants to go all-in and try to eject Lanni from the table, they can try at least, the reverse way though is much less feasible. It is really Greyjoy that has the first major choice in hand, and Lanni beginners are in a really shitty situation.

However, as said at the very beginning, the least things you change, the better, and in that means using only the combat cards is I believe a good way to go. Test the changes, and then, possibly add others.

In addition, as you guys propose these balancing options, I guess it is also to have others talk and discuss, but also test them. And is there a better place to test them than on Thronemaster.net ? That also adds in the "the least changes the better" as if developers have less work to implement that option, the happier they will probably be. ^^

That's where I come to what changes I believe, based on my experience, what I read on boardgamegeek.com and your two posts (and the comments that come with these!), Franc and Frode.

2- Suggested changes :

Option 1: Simply change the combat strength of Asha (becomes 2) and Balon (becomes 1), as suggested in Frode's thread. That would indeed nerf a bit Greyjoy's über card, which should by rebound make Lanni a bit in a better position. That may change a bit the good Stark situation, as Lannister being harder to take, more GJs would probably go north, but probably not much neither, and certainly scarcely help the Southerners.

Option 2: Make FEW house cards changes (and here it will be exteremly close to Frode, a bit less from Franc)

Baratheon : same as above by Franc, no change is fine, at least for now.

Greyjoy / Lannister : same as above by Franc : replace Balon by DwD Rodrick the Reader (such a nice idea to choose a Muster or a CoK!), replace Kevan by DwD Addam Marbrand. That should nerf a bit Greyjoy but also make Lannister a little stronger force to deal with : the Greyjoy will probably sail North slightly more, which should by rebound decrease also Stark's super stats.

Stark: that is why I would not change them at all actually, at least for now while the above change has not been massively tested. Anyway, Stark's deck is super hard to balance, as the main mechanic of Eddard / Robb / Roose is their core and changing other cards would only slightly affect them. And giving them Bolton or Frey cards seem too far from the story (I believe the reverse-support mechanic of Walder would actually even be better than Blackfish or Rodrick which are quite redundant, so giving them this would be an up, not a nerf).

Remember than if Stark and Greyjoy lose a few percents of win, they have to go to someone else !

It leaves us with Martell and Tyrell left. Tyrell has, I believe, an early game disadvantage in seas which can just ruin its games if Martell muster ships with CP* in ESS first turns and goes WSS before any mustering. He is basically half-dead at that point, and even if Bara goes south and takes Martell in the back, that would not make for Tyrell's game.  

As said by several, replacing Alester Florent by DwD Paxter Redwyne seems a good idea. It can also repell some sneaky Greyjoy plays by the sea. However, it is a big buff : would it be too much of change ? Possibly. That's why I would not change anything else (Mace, QoT...). And for the chosen card, I love Margaery's character... who cares about Alester Florent ? ^^

If Tyrell gets a buff, Martell needs one too as they are quite close in stats, but a lower one. Replacing Nymeria Sand by DwD Gerris Drinkwater is probably a small buff, as Nymeria's mechanic is not that interesting. Winning with Gerris is a challenge though as it is a 1 card, but is typical in the Martell theme, I believe, to slightly increase their influence.

And that's it and all I would do : 4 card changes, implement, and massively test. Get new stats, then talk again. ^^

Oh wait, have I invented absolutely nothing to what you both did guys ? Absolutely. But did a lot of explanation on why balancing is actually a nice option to have !

Have a nice evening all !

---

Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
France WCup team
2021: Bronze
2022: Silver

Thank you for this long and detailed post.

Personaly I do not see Paxter Redwine as a viable buff at the start. If Martell attacks you before mustering or CoK, you can't do anything with a single ship. Paxter is a big buff in late game when you are already established. It is actually enormous buff. I would strike Greyjoy at seas first using Loras and then use Paxter for the second strike. Seems a little OP to me now that Greyjoy does not have Balon anymore.

Anyways, I agree with your conclusion that we should implement changes and test them. Nevertheless, this is close to impossible. You need a large enough statistical sample to get decisive results and simply playing some games at home will simply not move the needle:/

Last edited by franc on 2019-Feb-18 18:55, edited 1x in total

That would probably mean adding these changes to a "custom" option here, like for the random placement or so.

And hence, would need an admin here willing to build such an option. In that aspect, the Asha - Balon swap would probably be much easier to implement and give a good start of the stats rebalancing. If it gives good results, it may even get to be the default setting of a map.

---

Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
France WCup team
2021: Bronze
2022: Silver

You are right. Implementing these changes to "custom" option would be very beneficial as we could get sufficient statistics.

However, since there is still no implementation of wildling cards, I think many of these changes will never happen.
Swapping Balon and Asha might be realistic to expect.