Zizzeus thanks for your feedback. Interesting games you have for sure and shows the options available in the even of an early martell aggression.

personally, this reinforce my feeling that in game#2, a southern alliance is a must for tyrell.

Revisiting my thoughts on Martell, my results with them have stayed rather steady, if not teribly impressive (winning right about 1 out of 6 games).  If anything, I have become a bigger believer in the necessity of preparing a land invasion via the Boneway around turn 7-8, especially if Web Of Lies came early and you weren't able to take a sea area.  Taking Kingswood can also be a major thorn in Bara's side, even if you can't parlay it into an occupation of King's Landing; if you can get him fighting for Storm's End a lot, that will ultimately cost him troops and track positions, and if you sneak to 5 supply you can field a much more threatening naval force in ESS.

Another great read! I disagree slightly with your card analysis:
The Best. Viper is exceptional - Yes
Arianne is the best defensive card in the game - Yes, but defensive cards don't win games. She stops people from attacking you. I prefer a 2 without text over her almost all fights. She discourages attacks on you same as Doran.
Doran is an absolute game changer that you don’t even have to win [...] Yes, but you need the board position for results. More often than not this is not happening. You said it yourself: GJ and Stark decide many games in the north without giving you a chance to intervene. Furthermore, Doran mostly serves the same purpose like Arianne which is good, but does not win games. Doran would be insane at starting position of Lannister/Baratheon. I am not saying that he is weak, but he is not insane either.
- Martell is Baratheon neighbor and particularly vulnerable to Patch Face, because they only have Viper/Doran they want to safe and as targets for Patch Face.
- If GJ and Martell would swap house cards, according your statement, GJ win rate would increase AND Martell win rate would go down, which I highly doubt. In my opinion, Martell win rate goes nuts with GJ cards while GJ still is decent with Martell cards.
- I go as far, that if you swap Tyrell and Martell cards, Martell win rate goes up. That's a bold statement and hard to proof, but I think Loras is needed to win from Martell's board position.
- Cards with just numbers/symbols are more easy to predict for everyone.
- To win the game, you need to win fights. Most of Martell's contribute little to that. Doran only sort of wins fights, but in the very long run. If you had a way to get knowledge about the next  Clash of Kings or a way to fight against anyone you can't reach, they would have the best cards.
- Except for Doran, all their cards are boring and not fun to play .
- I think at best they are tied first place with GJ and maybe arguably Stark.


On your experience as Martell, what wins more games: Destroy Baratheon or Tyrell? Or neither? Thanks a lot!

With the greatest respect I have to hard disagree about arienne. Your 1 card combined with doran makes you a massive pain in the arse to fight.

Sun Tzu says that 'the great general first seeks victory, then seeks battle'. The fact that she exists says to every other player 'even if you win the fight you are not advancing your win condition'

This effect is most profound in turn 10 when all bets are off and everyone wants castles. If arienne swapped her ability for a tower icon she wouldn't be nearly as good - she 'wins' every combat that you never have to fight because of her.

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Not today.

Completely agree with Pmeister General, Arianne is among the best 1 cards in the game, possibly THE best one (along with Tyion and Salladhor) and a must keep in hand for turn 10, but can also save a sea invasion, block Loras... While you don't care about the Martell cards with 2 CSTR and a sword.

At turn 9 in Bara, if Doran is not here, I will always consider Patchfacing Arianne, as she is such an issue on turn 10.

The card swapping argument is... dangerous. Each deck has been shaped to match with an initial situation on tracks and a position on track.

For example, Salladhor is key for one of the two navy-dependant houses (Bara / Grey), so is Victarion. Giving Victarion to Martell is pure non-sense, as indeed they'll be overpowered and break the balance.

Another example is Tyrell : their deck is very good, their position on the map is average, but what makes them very weak on start is their completely desperate position on tracks.

Martell's play on board is matching their motto of "unbowed unbent unbroken": very tough to go in their lands (a late game Tyrell usually needs Loras + Mace + QoT) but out of their 4 castles, any 5th is really hard to get.

To sum up, each card deck is also matching their way to play and their position on the map - and that's part of why this game is so great. Greyjoy so strong to take places, especially near the sea, but hard to keep them, Stark so resilient, etc. Swapping them does not really make sense.

And in the hands of a fair to good Martell, their deck is just wonderful.

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Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
France WCup team
2021: Bronze
2022: Silver

I don't think any card in the game has as much domination in its tier as Arianne does vs "1" cards. Maybe Loras with threes, that's it (Balon>=Roose, Viper>=Ned, Doran>=Olenna).

If you want to rank cards per CS, that has already been done in another topic :

https://www.thronemaster.net/?goto=community&sub=forum&fid=3&tid=51836#top

and https://www.thronemaster.net/?goto=community&sub=forum&fid=3&tid=51897#top

for 1 and 3 cards.

Don't forget this topic is for house Martell.

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Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
France WCup team
2021: Bronze
2022: Silver

On your experience as Martell, what wins more games: Destroy Baratheon or Tyrell? Or neither? Thanks a lot!
I'd say it is a thing where destroying Bara is more likely to result in a win, but opportunities to strike at Tyrell are easier to come by.  With Martell, you are so much at the mercy of your board position and Westeros Cards that I think the biggest mistake of all is to let a good enough opportunity pass you by while waiting for a perfect opportunity that may never come.

Last edited by Ser Hodor on 2021-Mar-11 16:22, edited 1x in total

@PMeister and @Necrarch: all you mention is true, yet, nothing explains why Arianne should win many games. Martell does not win many according to data, ergo I don't think she wins many games. She helps you not to loose games which is good, but something entirely different.

I repeat my statement: Martell cards are great, arguably tied for best place, but not the single best set. I accept that it does not make sense to swap house cards, but then it does not either to declare "the best" set.


Clarification for having a blank 2 over Arianne: I like to have Arianne in hand all the time. Just 8 out of 10 times when I have to play her, I would prefer to play a blank 2.


@Ser Hodor: thanks a lot once again!

As for data, you can have a look also at the stats of World Cup 2020, for example. Martell is second in number of castles (only below Greyjoy), which account for a lot in a tournament context, and was not bad for victories (between 2 and 4, don't remember, as usual tied with the mid-range houses with Bara and Stark).

Martell is NOT an easy house to play. It's defensive, but making most of cards and opportunities is far less obvious than for Stark, the other defensive house of the game.

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Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
France WCup team
2021: Bronze
2022: Silver

@tom it's really hard to quantify the effects of being attacked less often especially when your neighbours don't blurt out 'I would have attacked if not for arienne'.

What I would say instead is a working hypothesis: if ariennes ability was swapped; either for a single tower or a blank 2 strength not only would martells win rate go down but also martells ppg and average castle count.

That will never be tested however...

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Not today.

That will never be tested however...
Don't give Necrarch any more ideas

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MAESTER OF TOURNAMENTS
- World Cup: 2021-2024
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World Cup Team USA: 2021-2024

Yeah, Arianne's preventative power is not the most obvious, but it is an overwhelming difference even if you confined it to only its effect on Turn 10, when her mere presence often causes 2-3 of an opponent's marches to be directed away from Martell's most vulnerable holdings, and toward one of its rivals.