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tomwaitforitmy
Master Blacksmith

Posts: 42
Games: 42
Rank Points: 302
Member since: 2021-Jan-10

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-12 10:31
My dear lords, I completely agree. My point is: not being attacked might even explain why Martell is often second place. It stops you from losing, but doesn't automatically win either.
Ser Hodor
Son Of Hodor

Posts: 758
Games: 1,345
Rank Points: 10,186
Member since: 2016-Mar-20

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-12 17:35
I don't think that anyone was saying that she automatically wins the game for you, but it's not like any other card does that.  Our point is that she is one of the best cards in the game, even/especially because so much of her value accrues when she isn't even being played.
PMeisterGeneral
One Of The Kingsguard

Posts: 122
Games: 164
Rank Points: 881
Member since: 2019-Apr-27

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-14 08:18
On another martell related topic is building ships t1 and rushing tyrell in wss OPTIMAL if no clash or muster comes up or does it just help baratheon in the long run?

So far there seem to be 3 main ways to break out of the corner:

1. Take shipbreaker - without web of lies this seems to depend on baratheon misplaying rather than martell being brilliant.
2. Take WSS often on turn 2 if no clash/mustering shows up - this runs the risk of the game being decided in the North
3. Land march through the boneway - this seems to take ages and you run into support either from stony Sept or Blackwater bay

I get that martell has to be an opportunist above all else but as a chess player I like to have an endgame in mind to aim for. It seems very easy to come 2nd or 3rd but very hard to win.


Necrarch
Knight of Ni

Posts: 2,108
Games: 138
Rank Points: 1,021
Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-15 10:19
That is indeed the main issue for Martell. However, going to either Kingswood or Dornish Marches / Three Towers can be a slow but efficient way to go as well - just needs lots of time.


PMeisterGeneral
One Of The Kingsguard

Posts: 122
Games: 164
Rank Points: 881
Member since: 2019-Apr-27

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-18 20:05
So just to ask again...the turn two sea rush against tyrell if no mustering/clash comes up - is it martells best move? It seems to leave the back door open for baratheon


Necrarch
Knight of Ni

Posts: 2,108
Games: 138
Rank Points: 1,021
Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-18 21:23
It does open the back door, but Martell is strong in def. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, that will defend on Tyrell's def, on W cards...

It's a risky option, sure, but it may be worth it.


PMeisterGeneral
One Of The Kingsguard

Posts: 122
Games: 164
Rank Points: 881
Member since: 2019-Apr-27

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-18 22:49
Is it riskier than doing nothing and staying in the corner for another few turns?


Necrarch
Knight of Ni

Posts: 2,108
Games: 138
Rank Points: 1,021
Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-18 23:56
It depends on who is next to you, and if you want really to play the win or if you play for castles (e.g. in tournament a 4/5 2nd place can be a very good result).

That's a matter of preference - but definitely some want to try it when you can (only ~30% cases, I believe ?)


JukeboxHero
Stonemason's Apprentice

Posts: 25
Games: 17
Rank Points: 22
Member since: 2017-Jul-18

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-19 02:33
I'm of the belief that Martell is best when they commit 100%.  I feel like it's always better to play risky with Martell, because that golden opportunity sometimes never comes. Sometimes a good opportunity is all you'll get--so go for it while you can.
Ser Hodor
Son Of Hodor

Posts: 758
Games: 1,345
Rank Points: 10,186
Member since: 2016-Mar-20

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-19 05:14
Agree with JukeboxHero.  It's not a sure thing, but it may well be the best chance you get.

And you only get the chance 1/3 of the time, so may as well go for it.  You will get plenty of chances to player slower strategies anyway.
PMeisterGeneral
One Of The Kingsguard

Posts: 122
Games: 164
Rank Points: 881
Member since: 2019-Apr-27

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-20 08:00
[quote]It depends on who is next to you, and if you want really to play the win or if you play for castles (e.g. in tournament a 4/5 2nd place can be a very good result).

I hear you loud and clear on taking 2nd in a tournament but feel like every player has an obligation to play for a 7 Castle win.

Definitely feel like martell have to be played opportunistically, perhaps moreso than any other house.


PMeisterGeneral
One Of The Kingsguard

Posts: 122
Games: 164
Rank Points: 881
Member since: 2019-Apr-27

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-20 08:03
On another martell related topic is building ships t1 and rushing tyrell in wss OPTIMAL if no clash or muster comes up or does it just help baratheon in the long run?

So far there seem to be 3 main ways to break out of the corner:

1. Take shipbreaker - without web of lies this seems to depend on baratheon misplaying rather than martell being brilliant.
2. Take WSS often on turn 2 if no clash/mustering shows up - this runs the risk of the game being decided in the North
3. Land march through the boneway - this seems to take ages and you run into support either from stony Sept or Blackwater bay

I get that martell has to be an opportunist above all else but as a chess player I like to have an endgame in mind to aim for. It seems very easy to come 2nd or 3rd but very hard to win.

Just to come back to this it seems that out of the 3 options above shipbreaker is the ideal scenario but is dependent on external factors.

The main problem with blitzing tyrell seems to be baratheon coming in the back door when you are very far away from anyone who can help you and sandwiched between two foes.

How does a dornishman deal with the midgame threat of baratheon after attacking tyrell turn 2?


JukeboxHero
Stonemason's Apprentice

Posts: 25
Games: 17
Rank Points: 22
Member since: 2017-Jul-18

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-23 01:48
I'll keep this advice general, but it will be on a case-by-case basis, obviously.  There is just one main priority to dissuade an attack from Baratheon--keep Doran and (to a lesser extent) Arianne for as long as you can keeping an eye on:

1) Has a clash occurred yet?

2) What are Baratheon's priorities?

3) Is another clash likely coming and what is Baratheon's power token position?

If a clash has recently occurred (let's say start of turn 3), it just depends on how well you and Baratheon did on bids.  If Baratheon has two or more stars and you still have at least one, Baratheon will be pretty hesitant to make a move unless they also have the blade.  If a clash hasn't hit yet, Baratheon *still* really doesn't want to lose their lone star too early.  However, by Round 5, if no clash has hit (And you've made a good foothold) you have to assume Baratheon is coming, because the odds of the clash make it worth the whack from Doran.  This ultimately is the instinct you'll have to develop--how long will Baratheon hold out in fear from Doran until it's worth the risk of the hit.  I tend to think that the more savvy Baratheon players just go for it early if no clash, because none of Baratheon's positions are fantastic at the start... which brings me to...

Baratheon's priorities really boil down to--are they pushing for Blackwater fast or are they getting their sea network established.  The vast majority of players prefer the sea route, because the early Martell aggression is so so dangerous.  If this is the case, you, as Martell, have to dedicate yourself to constant mustering in Sunspear for the first few turns to keep East Summer Sea as packed as possible.  As long as you keep a dedicated number of ships with strong orders--you'll be ok.  2 in ESS, 1 in Sea of Dorne, 1 in Port --> if you've got this going with supports plus a defense order--Baratheon will have a hell of a time to stop you. That's 6 for you before cards.  Realistically, Baratheon can only get to 4--and that requires a +1 march--which is probably his ONLY star order.  As long as you can keep a strong presence (and get a little lucky with the Westeros cards) you can present a very real threat to stare down.

If Baratheon has a strong power pool and a clash is imminent, they will likely throw caution to the wind.  They will also likely stage a stronger incursion via land at this point--because breaking into the sea won't be worth the cost of losing ships unless they telegraph it with a heavy march plus a muster.

In summation--you have to make the cost of the attack worth more than it would be worth in the next few rounds.  Not always possible--but it should be your goal.
zwc098
Knight

Posts: 27
Games: 105
Rank Points: 575
Member since: 2017-May-09

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-23 04:05
I'll keep this advice general, but it will be on a case-by-case basis, obviously.  There is just one main priority to dissuade an attack from Baratheon--keep Doran and (to a lesser extent) Arianne for as long as you can keeping an eye on:

1) Has a clash occurred yet?

2) What are Baratheon's priorities?

3) Is another clash likely coming and what is Baratheon's power token position?

If a clash has recently occurred (let's say start of turn 3), it just depends on how well you and Baratheon did on bids.  If Baratheon has two or more stars and you still have at least one, Baratheon will be pretty hesitant to make a move unless they also have the blade.  If a clash hasn't hit yet, Baratheon *still* really doesn't want to lose their lone star too early.  However, by Round 5, if no clash has hit (And you've made a good foothold) you have to assume Baratheon is coming, because the odds of the clash make it worth the whack from Doran.  This ultimately is the instinct you'll have to develop--how long will Baratheon hold out in fear from Doran until it's worth the risk of the hit.  I tend to think that the more savvy Baratheon players just go for it early if no clash, because none of Baratheon's positions are fantastic at the start... which brings me to...

Baratheon's priorities really boil down to--are they pushing for Blackwater fast or are they getting their sea network established.  The vast majority of players prefer the sea route, because the early Martell aggression is so so dangerous.  If this is the case, you, as Martell, have to dedicate yourself to constant mustering in Sunspear for the first few turns to keep East Summer Sea as packed as possible.  As long as you keep a dedicated number of ships with strong orders--you'll be ok.  2 in ESS, 1 in Sea of Dorne, 1 in Port --> if you've got this going with supports plus a defense order--Baratheon will have a hell of a time to stop you. That's 6 for you before cards.  Realistically, Baratheon can only get to 4--and that requires a +1 march--which is probably his ONLY star order.  As long as you can keep a strong presence (and get a little lucky with the Westeros cards) you can present a very real threat to stare down.

If Baratheon has a strong power pool and a clash is imminent, they will likely throw caution to the wind.  They will also likely stage a stronger incursion via land at this point--because breaking into the sea won't be worth the cost of losing ships unless they telegraph it with a heavy march plus a muster.

In summation--you have to make the cost of the attack worth more than it would be worth in the next few rounds.  Not always possible--but it should be your goal.

For Baratheon, going north is much more appealing if Martell already sails west. He then attacks The Shivering Sea afterwards, and White Harbour, Moat Calin, The Eyrie, Reach, Winterfell… so many options for him.  This kind of game usually becomes a race between Baratheon and Martell, maybe Greyjoy also.
zwc098
Knight

Posts: 27
Games: 105
Rank Points: 575
Member since: 2017-May-09

Topic: House Analysis - Martell
Posted: 2021-Mar-23 04:07
Stark is usually weak after an early clash. Good Bara players won't let such a pleasant opportunity go away.

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