In lannister greyjoy alliance games, i play as martell and consider the southern alliance.

Just wondering what people think: is there any reason to assume that tyrell will be loyal to the alliance for a majority of the game?

What can tyrell possibly hope to achieve moving north? There is little chance that he can hold northern strongholds with lannister and greyjoy at large. He may be able to fight baratheon with martell, but that's just making lannister's life even easier. I feel that tyrell has no choice but to consolidate and then backstab martell at the right time.

Can we please assume that westeros cards fall evenly (which we should assume  when deciding overall strategy).

I find it disappointing/irritating when playing baratheon to see a southern alliance in this situation when martell SHOULD understand that this alliance will be his downfall.

Any comments are welcomed.

Wazza

Hi wazza,

in GJ-Lanni war the south alliance is reasonably a must otherwise big risk of Baratheon quick victory. (Especially if Stark does not CP in WH turn 1 which he should).

in GJ-Lanni peace

1. Tyrell still wants to make peace w Martell and wait for the opportunity north. (example opportunity is one of: web of lies, GJ ships north, GJ out of Balon, Tyrell has more power to get sword, GJ not careful w the orders...). It is definitely WRONG to assume that Tyrell has a small chance north. Also worth noting Tyrell will often find help with Stark in case Stark still has ships in BoI.

2. Martel can consider an outright war vs Tyrell. Usually Martell would leave this option open until beginning turn 2 seeing the Westeros cards. No Muster + No Clash = dead tyrell.  No Muster + Clash = Marty can still be aggressive especially if he (correctly) placed CP*, CP on land and march on sea turn 1.  Muster + Clash = Marty makes a happy peace.  (and Muster + No Clash I usually make peace too as Martell).

Yes, two alliances games are annoying for Baratheon. But this is the most typical balanced game, where GJ slows down Stark (otherwise good Stark will win 80-100% of games) and rest of the world plays to their best with Bara being the only upset about the geopolitical situation, sit at his castle and curse the coming Storm.

Last edited by Cornie4ever on 2018-Apr-19 17:02, edited 3x in total

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Don´t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend, every possible series of events is happening all at once. Live that way and nothing will surprise you.

Games with a GJ/Lannister-Alliance are usually very stall for at least half the game.
Everyone will just sit in his territory, getting the best position and waiting for something to happen.

Those silent games usually end under certain circumstances and Web of Lies being the most important one.

All you can do is to prepare for that moment and to make sure that your trackposition is as good as possible.

And from that moment on, the real game usually starts.

But with a GJ/Lannisteralliance, its usually a bad thing to wage war against Tyrell. Even if you manage to overwhelm him quickly, you will have Bara and Greyjoy in your neck, doing their best to take territories from you.

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"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." , Terry Pratchett

Throwing this into here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1C97CdmkUGm63rOTukytmmIAAnMPPV0S_

Apart from the very good spot of GJ in southern western alliance games it looks quite balanced.

I had a few successful games with taking Pyke as Tyrell if Lani decides to break the alliance at some point and supports you when going to sunset sea.

GJ-Lanni peace

1. Tyrell still wants to make peace w Martell and wait for the opportunity north. (example opportunity is one of: web of lies, GJ ships north, GJ out of Balon, Tyrell has more power to get sword, GJ not careful w the orders...). It is definitely WRONG to assume that Tyrell has a small chance north. Also worth noting Tyrell will often find help with Stark in case Stark still has ships in BoI.
I disagree with this section. In general, what areas north can tyrell hope to take and hold during the mid game assuming that lanni and greyjoy maintain their alliance until late game (which is usually the case)?

Ask the opposite question: can tyrell afford to fight against lannister and martell at the same time?

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AFFC PBF - #10
You do not need to know everything, but where to read it.-Albert Einstein-

Reading is overrated.-sarcasm off-

All alliances are situational.South alliance is strong indeed but it's also the easiest to break cause conquering the other one is the most viable way to win for them.It's true that turn 2 without clash or mustering means Tyrell is dead if Martell is a good player--why do you keep your words if backstabbing increases your winrate?It's GAME OF THRONES!
What's more,I don't see how Bara quickly wins  if GJ and Lannister are allies.He has 2 viable options,but if he goes north Lannister will hit his back.Attacking Lanni who has GJ's help is not very easy work either.Indeed in this case it's more reasonable to fight in south instead of getting allied,especially for Martell who's usually stronger early.Alliance means Tyrell will sit in his territory without a winning chance and Martell attack Bara in vain if Web of Lies doesn't occur--it will end up with southern fighting or GJ/Lanni winning finally.The game isn't balanced at all.
About Tyrell's going north:I dont think it viable espeicially when there's western alliance.It's very hard to break through if GJ doesnt make mistakes.What's more,if you take Ironman's Bay and Martell hasn't managed to successfully invade Bara,good Martell players will probably stop fighting against Bara and turn to backstabb you.How can you win if Martell crushes you afterwards?What's more,why not go against Martell instead of GJ when you are strong enough?Can GJ hit your back?

https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=154036  I believe it's a good example.Pay attention to what Martell chooses to do in turn 9.

Ask the opposite question: can tyrell afford to fight against lannister and martell at the same time?
I appreciate your input but im not sure i see your point. Im assuming that there is a southern alliance. So during the midgame, im assuming that tyrell and martell dont fight. Im assuming that martell is focused on undermining baratheon any way he can. So martell wont be fighting tyrell at all, maybe getting help from tyrell instead.

Just throwing the thought into the mix because thinking of the opposite can help in most cases.
Your initial point is to go against Martell, but as soon as you are doing so, you are opening yourself for Lannister. Lannister himself has an easier time fighting two houses because of his support areas while you have to to fight in to seperate directions.

Another part most are underestimating in these general thoughts: No game plays out "perfectly" and these would be pretty boring. In the perfect game everyone would play against one house so no house is against unfair odds. Point remains: YOu dont want to fight fair fights because you could loose them. So your target is to make the fight as unfair as possible for your opponent and he is doing the same for you. The optimal result would be a circle of backstabbs.
But since the human factor plays a huge role you dont get this circle=>
There are arguments for both options: Staying loyal to the alliance and to backstab. In both cases you dont get a definite answer since it depends on too many factors which are not controlable by yourself. For example: What is Baratheon doing? Supporting Stark or invading Stark himself? Is Greyjoy or Lannister making a crucial mistake so the other one decides to backstab on his side. Is another player turning mad because the promised support wasnt delivered and is now going ham against the not dominant house(every 3rd kingmaking report^^)

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AFFC PBF - #10
You do not need to know everything, but where to read it.-Albert Einstein-

Reading is overrated.-sarcasm off-

In general, what areas north can tyrell hope to take and hold during the mid game assuming that lanni and greyjoy maintain their alliance until late game (which is usually the case)?
Tyrell is not a "take and hold" house that would gradually expand. Tyrell is a "wait for the opportunity and kill" type of house.

Your goal is to accummulate power, build strength (both seas and land), establish yourself at Searod M (easy w QoT and/or Bara help. Usually Bara keeps BW and Tyrell SM is a good alliance deal to screw Lanni) and cycle cards w friendly Martell so you get QoT / Loras / Mace quickly twice (its also good for Marty to have Doran twice) and then you simply kill the one that gives you a good opportunity to strike.

It can be GJ on seas (QoT in LP can remove Lanni seas supp or WoL card) or Lanni on land or sometimes even Bara/Martell if they make mistakes.

Tyrell is not easy to play but is definitely most enjoyable house to play that offers variety of ways to win, if you can pull it off.

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Don´t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend, every possible series of events is happening all at once. Live that way and nothing will surprise you.

Tyrell is not a "take and hold" house that would gradually expand. Tyrell is a "wait for the opportunity and kill" type of house.
I agree with you but in my experience the destruction tyrell leaves behind after a qot/loras moves favors another house. Except you wait for round 10 for that of course..

When turning vs Bara via qot in bwb martell might get DS easily and after baras defeat has the nicer influence in the region via sea bridge in shipbreaker bay. Like here:
https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=145888

When Tyrell is going vs Pyke, lannister might appreciate that knowing that you cannot defend pyke vs lannister and your home areas vs martell. In this case Lannister profits. Like here:
https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=149047

If tyrell turns vs lannister GJ is happy about the missing support in stoney sept and takes lannisport and RR via golden sound.

So is the strategy as tyrell to wait until round 10 and do a double loras move?

Hey Paco,

it really depends, there are variety of ways to win:

- in a strange game round 10  https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=81797 this was my first Tyrell game lifetime
- vs Lanni / GJ https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=86416
- over Bara and MArty https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=86426
- on land vs Bara and Lanni https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=101465
- vs GJ on seas typical route https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=108578
- stab Marty at the right time https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=112076
- win vs Marty in outright war (this was vs deranger no. 1 Martell player on platform before he quit btw) https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=103080
- take a piece from everyone win everywhere point of view special greetings to strongest gallic https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=108606
- vs GJ on sea typical route https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=115276
- vs Lanni and Bara https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=122046
- fail vs GJ so turn on Marty https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=124065
- patiently wait for GJ weakness https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=125758
- take a piece everywhere and see https://game.thronemaster.net/?review=1&game=141067

You can see that powering well is key and getting good Raven position during the game and going for Sword at the right time often plays a role, as well as gathering strength and always securing SM early unless you want to go on seas...

Many many routes for Tyrell. Have fun

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Don´t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend, every possible series of events is happening all at once. Live that way and nothing will surprise you.

I believe Tyrell does better with a southern alliance, as already mentioned. The opportunity to strike will present itself usually, including at Martell if you choose to do so.

What I really hate about playing Tyrell is that I am like a medieval peasant praying for rain in the first few turns. Come on clash and mustering! Did you get at least one? Cool, you still have a fighting chance. Did you get none and martell is a decent aggressive player? Come behind the shed!

In the 7 games I've played with Tyrell so far, I've had three where I got boned hard by the westeros cards. Specifically, one had no muster/clash till turn 4, one had only a clash turn 3 after martell already had 3 boats in WSS, and one with a muster 2nd turn, but no clash until a later turn . I have one similar Tyrell game running currently, where we got a muster turn 2, but the first clash happened turn 7! Can't CP*, can't be that aggressive, all you do is sit there like an idiot with your prayer book. And it's still good that a clash at least happened, but you're not very happy going into your first clash as tyrell when everyone has ~17 power tokens

Of course, there's always the possibility that I just suck at playing Tyrell ... or I'm not praying hard enough

100% agree. And yeh those dry games suck (especially if you fail to convince Martell to ally), but statistically you get at least one of Muster / Clash until turn 3 often enough. You just need more sample.

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Don´t fight in the North, or the South. Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend, every possible series of events is happening all at once. Live that way and nothing will surprise you.

100% agree. And yeh those dry games suck (especially if you fail to convince Martell to ally), but statistically you get at least one of Muster / Clash until turn 3 often enough. You just need more sample. I agree, a matter of sampling. With an aggressive Martell though, you need at least a muster or a clash turn 2, or a mustering turn 3 at the latest. One lone clash turn 3 won't be enough since Martell will already have your seas if (s)he played properly.

I've had games where I got lucky with Westeros cards, and others where I got unlucky. But it doesn't seem that impactfull to me for the other houses if the westeros cards do not go your way (lannister excluded since they are in a similar if not worse boat). You usually need some combos of cards and events to really get banged up with other houses, which is a more unlikely occurrence.

Speaking of unlikely occurrences, I'm just finishing a martell game where there was not a single mustering the whole game (7 turns). Three supplies, 2 thrones (no mustering chosen) and a last days of summer. It was getting kind of hard to hold onto Highgarden, Oldtown, the Reach, Sunspear and Storm's End with a dead horse, a siege engine and a footman