Hello

I have read on several discussions here on the forums that Baratheon players often have motivation to keep themselves first on the Iron Throne. I've always wondered what was the reason behind such logic? I would argue that being first on the Iron Throne often comes with negatives -- if the king was able to choose when to issue the orders or in which order players muster their troops then it would have more power, but being first in those two aspects do not equal a better situation some of the times.

Moreover, with the Power Token income that the Baratheons have early game they could easily overpower other players in the rest of the tracks and have a good chance to come ahead and collect both the Blade and the Raven.

Finally by choosing not to bid on the Iron Throne, Baratheons also gain one point on Stannis, which is kind of like having a weaker version of the Blade (but without the commodity of choosing when to use it) and Raven (similarities with the +1 march order token, but weaker) in the early game, while they have all cards.

I would be really interested to know what other, more experienced players think and to understand the rationale behind staying on top of the Iron Throne when playing Baratheon.

Thanks a lot for your time guys!

Last edited by Simoneon on 2018-Aug-27 19:55, edited 1x in total

aside from the obvious (raiding & mustering before the enemies), it allows you to decide tied bids and in any clash there are bound to be at least several meaningful ties. that means it holder gets to either help allies/weaker players and thus give himself more time to win, or to extract concessions from players in return for helping them. all of this is not specific to bara, but due to his position on the board, where he has 4 potential enemies, i think that diplomacy is crucial for bara more then for any other house and it gives him a good bargaining tool. often it can be had dirt cheap too, since most players save their tokens for stars and run at blade, so it makes sense for bara to try to keep it. however blade and raven/stars are definitely more valuable for now and getting stannis to 5 can sometimes be crucial for breaking through opposing defenses, so i wouldn't say bara needs to go for it on every clash.

things will change with the new expansion introducing vassals, giving it huge additional value

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My kung fu is the best

Hello

I have read on several discussions here on the forums that Baratheon players often have motivation to keep themselves first on the Iron Throne. I've always wondered what was the reason behind such logic? I would argue that being first on the Iron Throne often comes with negatives -- if the king was able to choose when to issue the orders or in which order players muster their troops then it would have more power, but being first in those two aspects do not equal a better situation some of the times.

Moreover, with the Power Token income that the Baratheons have early game they could easily overpower other players in the rest of the tracks and have a good chance to come ahead and collect both the Blade and the Raven.

Finally by choosing not to bid on the Iron Throne, Baratheons also gain one point on Stannis, which is kind of like having a weaker version of the Blade (but without the commodity of choosing when to use it) and Raven (similarities with the +1 march order token, but weaker) in the early game, while they have all cards.

I would be really interested to know what other, more experienced players think and to understand the rationale behind staying on top of the Iron Throne when playing Baratheon.

Thanks a lot for your time guys!
I think there are several issues being conflated here.  But assuming we are talking about specifically a clash in the first Westeros Phase, here's where I stand:

You are right that moving first is sometimes a hindrance rather than a help.  Moving last is definitely better at the end of the game, when siege engines are in play and all alliances are abandoned. However, in the early to mid game, being able to raid first is an enormous advantage. It also helps for pulling an expeditionary force of troops out of enemy territory before Gregor/Viper/Edd/Loras/Doran can fall on them, but raiding is my primary concern.  It allows you to protect yourself from a southern alliance  supporting each other's attacks, but most importantly, as long as you burn first, you should be able to securely CP in either Kings Landing or Kingswood, keeping up your crucial money advantage.

1 extra combat strength for Stannis can also be crucial, particularly for breaking into Narrow Sea/ESS/Blackwater.  But on balance I'm not willing to trade that small boost in a single battle for being able to protect not just my crown orders, but supports that can easily be good for 2-4 extra combat strength in multiple battles each turn.

Tiebreaking in Clashes is a valuable diplomatic tool, not to mention the ability to self-deal when everyone skimps on a bid.  And it can also be important with Wildling Attacks; in close clashes where several houses are tied (or almost) in cash reserves, it can be a big difference maker that a) you only need to tie any of them to beat them on a particular track and b) you don't have to save 1-2 tokens to protect against taking the worst of a wildling loss.

The other thing, as ajant mentions, is that even if it is the least important track to stay ahead on, it is generally very cheap for Baratheon to keep it when they start with it. It's rare that a bid of 1 won't retain the throne. It's generally only when Lanni/GJ are fighting, and one of them decides to gamble on it instead of the blade.  For everyone else, as much as they might like to have it, it's just too risky to gamble a significant amount of $ on it when doing so could take them right out of contention for the next 2 tracks worth of bidding.


In summary: keep the throne as long as it stays cheap, but don't sweat it once you lose it.

See the throne as token saver. You can always biď one token less than everybody elsecto secure your position and force others to bid if they want to avoid certain effects.
Especially in a clash wildling scenario early in tje gamecor with low token amount on the board in general. Play a 3p game and have two clashes plus wildlings. You will wish you had the throne.
You couod also try to kill marches by attacking first.
From an invest return pov The throne in general ist pretty good While you often have to bid high amounts for sword and raven.

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AFFC PBF - #10
You do not need to know everything, but where to read it.-Albert Einstein-

Reading is overrated.-sarcasm off-

Thanks a lot for your valuable perspective guys! I'll keep these points in my mind when playing as Baratheon

My perspective when playing Baratheon.

Most of the game: Be king, since Stannis is just and fair.
Towards the end or when you're clearly going to get outbid by others: Bid 0 and use your powers to put yourself last. That way you are assured to be last on the SE musical chairs and have an angry Stannis on your hand.

Imo there are no other positions on that track where Baratheon should be.

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House Farwynd has the answer!

One thing I noticed that was cool about having the Throne was during a Clash, you look at how much each house has in PT left and normally, without the throne, you would bid one more than the other factions you wished to be higher than (if you could afford it) to guarantee yourself a higher position on whatever track. With the Throne, you can actually bid equal an amount to what the other factions will bid, and thereby save power tokens in the long run. This is particularly useful and accurate during the bid on the King's Court, because typically, factions will bid all of their remaining power tokens to gain star orders so you know what they will bid.

If you did not have the Throne and bid an amount that tied on particular track, you would rely on the charity of the current holder of the Throne. Dicey.

Generally speaking the IT track is as important as the other two.There are times when you are even willing to spend all tokens you have to make sure you march before someone else.Not to mention you can always put yourself higher bidding for  fiefdoms and kings court with throne.
  Throne is espeicially important for Bara and Lanni --they are in the center of the map and the order to move/raid is always important for them.If there is a tough fight between GJ and Stark,or between Martell and Tyrell then the throne is  important for them too,espeicially for Martell with doran in his hand.It's usually the case that if you march first, you can kill you enemy, and if you march later than your enemy you have to put defense order instead.Usually the throne in most cases is worth at least 2-3 tokens,maybe even more.

Generally speaking the IT track is as important as the other two.There are times when you are even willing to spend all tokens you have to make sure you march before someone else.Not to mention you can always put yourself higher bidding for  fiefdoms and kings court with throne.
  Throne is espeicially important for Bara and Lanni --they are in the center of the map and the order to move/raid is always important for them.If there is a tough fight between GJ and Stark,or between Martell and Tyrell then the throne is  important for them too,espeicially for Martell with doran in his hand.It's usually the case that if you march first, you can kill you enemy, and if you march later than your enemy you have to put defense order instead.Usually the throne in most cases is worth at least 2-3 tokens,maybe even more. PS:Only when I play Stark and a strenthened Stannis is rather threatening, I do not bid anything for the iron throne.

I will bid 0 on the throne frequently, especially if a) I am neck-and-neck with another player in $, and want to preserve a shot at stars, b) I am friendly with the current king, and feel confident that I will be placed higher in a tie, or c) it's later in the game, when I am not sure another clash is coming and would rather be marching last on the final round than still have a siege engine moving after me.

throne is far from worthless, but it's value is very situational. blade & stars are far less so. raven is not the main reason why you bid on kc track, at least here, because 2nd edition wildlings are not yet implemented.  many players bid 0 both on sword & on throne, but winning bid for sword will almost always be significantly bigger for sword then for throne. i'd say on average throne is definitely least useful at this time

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My kung fu is the best

I think the most important thing (early clash/wildings) beside all the stuff everyone above said - is that u actualy resolve all the ties - thus u have the power to balance things out in the whole westeros indirectly, so neither house will get too much power over another. If they do, u simply balance the things out in resolved ties (earlygame bids pretty often are fairly even). So the fellas fight over their stuff and u just sit in ur KL, KW and DS farming gold and getting advantage over them for the next clashes/wildings to come. U prepare urself to punish either Stark, either Martel for being poor later with ur navy strike after another clash (u bid 0 on throne for angry stannis, get star for +1 march, try to get sword) and u are free to invade either of them)

Last edited by Furtum Vitae on 2018-Sep-07 05:54, edited 1x in total