Soda-can 30 minutes ago

Im okay, stuck inside this place, weher the rain go tip top, this the place I - seen the future in your eyes, now the wall.

Mandy Storm 39 minutes ago

Drinking Soda..can sing and pop. Flip Flop bee bop on Top

Mandy Storm 40 minutes ago

Sing for us Soda-Can!!

Soda-can 41 minutes ago

Steel blastin' in my hand, keep metal on me, iron man

Soda-can 1 h 23 min ago

Adding a music (LoFi) feature could rook as well, I'm no coder

Soda-can 1 h 25 min ago

Anyone know something 'bout MoD here on this rookhose of a site

Soda-can 1 h 30 min ago

Bendin'

Soda-can 1 h 33 min ago

We don't fall we don't break we don't Die we can try

Firosap 2 h 22 min ago

cant join 7p would join 6p

Soda-can 2 h 33 min ago

Almost 4, come back!

finger111 2 h 54 min ago

2/7 live game

Soda-can 3 hours ago

Is it FFA? ON!!

Soda-can 6 hours ago

2/3

Soda-can 6 hours ago

For 7 live?

Soda-can 6 hours ago

*Me2's

Soda-can 6 hours ago

Anyone watching shôgun? I'm on 7 to, if there's show of me to in chat

Soda-can 7 hours ago

6 is on

Nicky 9 hours ago

Anyone 3P live?

Soda-can 9 hours ago

Free Gaza from Hamas #fgfh

Karijin 10 hours ago

*we

You fight like a dairy farmer.



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Dave the Sweetling
Warden Of The North

Posts: 22
Games: 434
Rank Points: 2,277
Member since: 2017-Oct-30

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-06 23:35
Greetings to all the Lords, Ladies, and Lommy's in the realm.  I wanted to open up a discussion (although there's a very good chance this has been discussed elsewhere) on a variant I've played in person with my buddies several times, namely holding a draft of house cards before the game begins.

Each house starts at their assigned positions on the board and with their assigned house cards. Each player chooses one card  to keep in their hand while passing their remaining cards to the player on their right or left. Starting with Baratheon, the  Baratheon cards pass to Martell, Tyrell, Lannister, Greyjoy, and Stark before the final unchosen Baratheon card returns to Baratheon to complete their hand of 7 (this order can also be reversed and it creates a very different dynamic). No matter which direction you pass in, each house keeps what the player determines is its "best" card, and the card that the rest of the realm passes on, or the "worst" card, eventually makes its way back to its original house.  Each house ends up having two of its original cards as well as one card from every other house. The result is that each game presents each house with a unique set of house cards and an endless supply of new and challenging match ups.

Just as a quick example, say you have been assigned house Stark and you will be passing your hand to Greyjoy.  Most likely you will elect to keep Roose Bolton rather than Eddard. Even on the off chance you value Eddard and his two swords over Roose's ability to return your entire hand after losing a battle, electing to keep Eddard would result in Greyjoy being able to pair Roose with Balon, a potentially unbeatable hand. So the only real choice in this scenario is to choose to keep Roose. Let's look at a few different scenarios depending on which card  Baratheon elects to keep.

If Baratheon chooses to keep Stannis, Stark can now choose from  Patchface, Melissandra, Sallahdor, Brienne, Davos, and Renly. If Stark chooses Salladhor, he has a great way to defend against a potential Greyjoy sea invasion and may be able to thwart it entirely. Alternatively Stark could select Patchface, creating a Roose/Patchface combo that could devastate an opponent's hand, the prospect of which may deter an attack in the first place. Selecting Patchface also prevents him from passing to Greyjoy, meaning that Roose is safe unless successfully baited out, something that Greyjoy will have a much harder time doing without Aeron. Sallahdor could end up with Greyjoy, giving him a kind of defensive replacement (albeit with some tantalizing offensive opportunities) for Victarion.

Baratheon might very well choose to hang on to Sallahdor as his defensive backbone. This leaves Stark with the choice of the devastating Patchface/Roose combo or a Roose/ Super Stannis +5 combo. Not to be forgotten are the implications for Greyjoy's hand. If Stark goes for the Roose/Patchface combo in a scenario where Baratheon kept Sallahdor, Greyjoy is looking at a potential first three cards of Balon, Eddard, and Super Stannis, a Squidy nightmare for the realm.

The brief discussion above illustrates all of the choices that having a draft would present to a player before the game has even started. Thematically, it's in line with the family infighting and shifting individual loyalties that are common place in A Song of Ice and Fire. I'd be interested to see what other peoples' takes are on drafting and am curious as to if drafting has every been discussed as a potential option for the site much as random start position is.

Can't wait to see what hand combinations other users come up with. Best of wishes to all the Lords and Ladies, and a pox upon the Lommys and their filthy green hands. --- Dave the Sweetling
Dave the Sweetling
Warden Of The North

Posts: 22
Games: 434
Rank Points: 2,277
Member since: 2017-Oct-30

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-06 23:46
As a follow up, here are the cards I believe each house would choose to keep although this is certainly up for debate as well:
Stark- Roose Bolton
Greyjoy- Balon Greyjoy
Lannister- Gregor Clegane
Tyrell- Loras Tyrell
Martell- Arianne Martell
Baratheon- Salladhor Saan

Part of this is personal preference for abilities and in Gregor's case swords over brute strength, but I think it also reflects that 4's will be available to most houses with their second pick and even as a 3rd pick for some
deranger
Squire

Posts: 121
Games: 55
Rank Points: 394
Member since: 2016-Mar-30

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-07 00:43
I wrote up a draft variant with input from others on the forum a while ago. We even played half a game. However, in that version, it was a snake draft rather than a passing draft, and influence positions and starting locations were up for grabs as well.

Rules and discussion: https://www.thronemaster.net/?goto=community&sub=forum&fid=3&tid=34821#top

Incomplete play-by-forum's first topic: https://www.thronemaster.net/?goto=community&sub=forum&fid=9&tid=35194#top
(the rest can be found more recently in pbf)

It's an interesting experiment, but I think the decks would end up quite similar after a few playthroughs. Also, Salladhor being valued over stannis, a far less finnicky powerful card, and Arianne trumping Doran or the Viper is not something I see. Without needing to keep house card strength approximately equal, I see this primarily being taking the highest value card available, with the interesting part being how people see value of effects being worth a point or 3.

Stark having roose and victarion is a reason I could see Baratheon keeping Saan, as you mentioned, but that puts them at a severe offensive disadvantage. Either way, Stark being able to own the sea on one or both sides sounds pretty unfair.

Tyrell having the viper and Loras seems quite deadly. I assume you'd do something similar to what we decided, where Davos applies to whatever your current 4 is, and victarion/kevan/saan's descriptions switch to their owner's armies.
Dave the Sweetling
Warden Of The North

Posts: 22
Games: 434
Rank Points: 2,277
Member since: 2017-Oct-30

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-07 02:36
Thanks for the links! It seems like your variant takes takes things a step further by having everything up for draft, sounds like an extremely interesting way to do it. I think it would require very experienced players to be able to compare the relative value of spaces on the board to House Cards to Influence track positions. If you got another game going with those rules I'd love to play.

As to my original post, the idea of doing a passing draft is that each house remains in it's starting position and has two cards from their original deck, maintaining at least some semblance of house identity for thematic purposes, which is just a personal preference over a completely random snake draft but again both would be interesting.

As to card selection in a passing draft, i think you are completely right when you say similar patterns would emerge, but our differing opinions on the value of Arianne provides a great example of how drafts could differ. Personally I believe Martell would want to keep Arianne operating under the assumptions that 1) Tyrell would choose to keep Loras so Arianne is needed as a hard check and 2) since Tyrell is keeping Loras, that leaves Mace for Martell to select with his second pick, compensating for the numerical value of The Red Viper as well as at least partially for the Viper's two swords with Mace's special ability. Martell taking Mace also acts as a huge early game deterrent to the mustering challenged Tyrell.

Of course Tyrell could choose to keep Mace and pass on Loras, but that gives Loras to Martell and that would force Tyrell to take Tyrion to counter Loras, allowing either Tywin or Gregor to pass on to Martell depending on who Lannister selects first (either Tywin or Gregor). Of course Tyrell could go all in on strength and end up with Mace and either Tywin or Gregor, but that would leave them very vulnerable to Loras from Martell.

Upon  further consideration, I will concede that Baratheon probably wants to keep Stannis and possibly have a combo of Stannis and the Red Viper or Stannis and Eddard depending on which way you pass, leaving Patchface in the hands of another house to overcome this potent double 4 combo for house Baratheon.

The only way to really know is to play a few games and see how the different scenarios play out. Can I ask how you were able to organize you game with a snake draft? I'd like to be able to set up and host a game under the pass draft rules described in my original post.
deranger
Squire

Posts: 121
Games: 55
Rank Points: 394
Member since: 2016-Mar-30

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-07 16:28
Personally, I think Loras is the best card in the game, so I'm not saying Tyrell will do that. My main point is that having a deck of mostly 4 cards is extremely powerful. Most effects don't make up for 3 house card strength/a much better chance at winning a battle. I also think you're ignoring the fact that an effective Loras counter is not losing the battle against him. High house card strengths help you do that, and help you acquire more territory and maintain your formation to make your armies stronger/near impervious.

And yeah, Patchface also isn't that great, you usually lose when playing him, and he eliminates the best card your opponent has remaining while helping them cycle cards faster. If you choose him, you're giving your next door neighbour a 4, so even if you patchface at the beginning, their next best cards is still a 4 and you've lost that battle.

Overall, I think you're undervaluing house card strength. Loras, Balon, Roose, Doran, and maybe Victarion and QoT are the only cards I see being worth giving up 2 or more printed strength.

I just posted the topic as a discussion, but it generated enough interest to start the pbf, as you can see in the later pages. So yeah, it's just about getting enough interest here.
Nomaris
Maester without a chain

Posts: 2,453
Games: 389
Rank Points: 2,611
Member since: 2017-May-19

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-07 17:18
At least I would really be interested in playing a draft variant.


Dave the Sweetling
Warden Of The North

Posts: 22
Games: 434
Rank Points: 2,277
Member since: 2017-Oct-30

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-07 22:17
Assuming the direction of passing is Baratheon>Stark>Greyjoy>Lannister>Tyrell>Martell>Baratheon
I think round 1 each house keeps
Baratheon: Stannis
Stark: Roose (strong chance they keep Eddard though, see double 4 Baratheon discussion below)
Greyjoy: Balon
Lannister: Gregor
Tyrell: Loras
Martell: Arianne

The idea is that Martell and Lannister can give up their 4s because they know in round 2 that Euron and Mace will be available to replace them, so after round 2 we'd have

Baratheon: Stannis, Red Viper
Stark: Roose, Renly/Salladhor
Greyjoy: Balon, Eddard
Lannister: Gregor, Euron
Tyrell: Loras, Tywin
Martell: Arianne, Mace

So obviously not ideal for Martell to give the Red Viper to Baratheon but the alternative is to give him Arianne which makes Baratheon's sea territory essentially inaccessible to him. Martell might very well choose to hold on to The Red Viper but doing so would be a pretty clear indication to the board that he had no intention of sailing against Baratheon.

By passing up on Tywin in the first round, Lannister now has 4 Swords between his strength 3 and 4 cards, which I think is much better than the alternative combo of Tywin and Euron, two strength 4 cards with 1 sword between them plus Tywin's ability to generate 2 power tokens.

I think the house that is put at the greatest disadvantage when passing this direction is Stark seeing as they are the one house left without a 4 but I think that might help balance them a bit as the house with the highest win rate. Also helping with Stark's lack of 4 is the fact that Greyjoy will no longer have Victarion nor probably Aeron to bait Roose, but suddenly Stark's greatest threat is the double 4 Baratheon and Starks inability to defend the Narrow Sea round 1 from an aggressive Baratheon so who knows, after a play through or two maybe Stark decides to keep Eddard with their first pick instead of Roose.

I guess my point is that while in a vacuum cards with higher strength are indeed better, when considered with the existing starting positions, political predispositions, and what cards your neighbor will most likely select, the special ability of some cards may indeed prove to be more important. Furthermore, passing in the opposite direction creates a whole new set of considerations, and while players could decide to pass in any order they wish, I've found that the order assumed above and the reverse are the most logical, at least when playing in person, because that is where players usually sit around the table.
Ser Hodor
Son Of Hodor

Posts: 756
Games: 1,331
Rank Points: 10,054
Member since: 2016-Mar-20

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-07 23:10
Martell really seems to get the raw end of that deal too.  Arianne and Mace can't compete with any of the Bara/Tyrell/Lanni combos.
Carl.hollinger
Warden Of The North

Posts: 241
Games: 372
Rank Points: 1,787
Member since: 2015-May-18

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-07 23:41
I have played a snake draft IRL, but each house had to follow the default distribution (4,3,2,2,1,1,0). I think that approach would be better suited to this pass&pick variant.


Nomaris
Maester without a chain

Posts: 2,453
Games: 389
Rank Points: 2,611
Member since: 2017-May-19

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-08 00:23
I wouldn't value Arianne so much. Better to win a battle with the Viper than loose it with Arianne.


Dave the Sweetling
Warden Of The North

Posts: 22
Games: 434
Rank Points: 2,277
Member since: 2017-Oct-30

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-08 04:03
Some sort of snake draft following the 4,3,2,2,1,1,0 requirement would be interesting but if everyone is guaranteed a 4 I think the result is that special abilities become even more valuable. I would be grabbing as many specials as I could and just living with whichever 4 I ended up with (most likely Tywin or Mace, probably the 2 least valuable 4s in a six player game) even if it meant taking a 0 like Doran, Qot, or even Patchface or Cersei  before I took a 4. If everyone is guaranteed a 4 I think that there is a pretty strong argument to be made that none of the houses would choose to keep their 4 with their first pick. I'd assume:

Baratheon: Salladhor (1)
Stark: Roose (2)
Greyjoy: Balon (2)
Lannister: Gregor (3)
Tyrell: Loras (3)
Martell: Arianne (1)

This would guarantee the most value at that number, the idea being that the difference in value of Salladhor (1) and Margery (1), for example, is much greater than the difference in value between Stannis (4/5) and any of the other 4s.

I guess my valuation of Arianne is largely based on the number of fights having her in your hand prevents, much like the deterrence value of Patchface, Doran, or even QoT in some circumstances.

Overall I think having a pass draft with no 4,3,2,2,1,1,0 structure would make for some really interesting hands.
ajant
Blacksmith's Apprentice

Posts: 148
Games: 34
Rank Points: 88
Member since: 2014-May-31

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-08 19:54
i'd love to see snake draft with no restrictions (such as 4,3,2,2,1,1,0 requirement)


Ser Hodor
Son Of Hodor

Posts: 756
Games: 1,331
Rank Points: 10,054
Member since: 2016-Mar-20

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2018-Nov-09 01:02
Perasonally, I'd take Doran over Arianne in a heartbeat.  He's a better deterrent, works on offense as well as defense, and can drastically change the entire course of a game in an instant.
princess
Pawn

Posts: 3
Games: 3
Rank Points: 0
Member since: 2019-Feb-22

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2019-Feb-27 19:36
Like 7 years ago we did something similar on Vassal --

Everyone started with 20PT and we did a bid for starting locations (you got to pick any space on the map). Players bid for the land winner got to put either a ship, a FM, or a KN and a FM onto the spot they purchased. You were allowed to purchase up to 2 sea spaces I believe (or maybe if you purchased an island you got a sea space with it -- basically keeping with the Baratheon/GJ setup of island nations getting two ships).

Then we bid for the influence track positions.

Remaining power tokens were left in your supply at the start of the game.

The idea of a house card draft would be really fun as well to add to this. We were limited by the vassal engine unfortunately but in real life it could be fun.

I'd recommend actually setting up a deck of 7 cards by shuffling all the 4s together, then all the 3s, etc etc. and dealing out a blind hand (4, 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 0) to all players. So they're not drafting from their specific house set, but a house card pack. To make it more fun you can use cards from all the expansion sets for some real shenanigans.
deranger
Squire

Posts: 121
Games: 55
Rank Points: 394
Member since: 2016-Mar-30

Topic: House Card Draft
Posted: 2019-Feb-28 05:43
That house card thing isn't really a draft, really just a lottery.

Were you bidding to choose land first?

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