Hello everyone,

I hope you already had the chance to play the wonderful Mother of Dragons expansion. We already discussed Targaryen and the Baratheon balancing issues.

Theres one thing that really interests me: What do you think about the new house in Westeros? While everyones excited about Targaryen I think Arryn is really interesting. What do you think about Arryn? Are they balanced? Are the house cards to defensive? Is the new map overlay counterintuitive for stark and probably even Baratheon?

Lets talk about Arryn in a 8 player or 7 player (without Essos) matchup!

Edit: Typo

TK

Last edited by TKayy on 2019-Jul-23 20:58, edited 1x in total

I finally got to play as Arryn in a full 8p game after playing about 6 other times. I'll try collecting my thoughts as best I can and organize them cogently.

Starting situation:
Not...bad. Definitely not great, but certainly manageable. For 2nd edition players, they feel very similar to Tyrell at the beginning. A little fragile, but not necessarily weak. Starting with 3 knights AND a 4 defense garrison is a decent starting position. The 4 garrison even keeps you safe from dragons (and siege engines) for the first half of the game even if you lose your sea (but definitely don't!)  While most houses struggle with an abundance of neighbors you kind of don't--because the river up to the twins blocks a path to you on land, leaving you only really needing to make sure you keep Mountains of the Moon (and by extension, Cracklaw). MotM is your Stoney Sept: not necessarily extremely valuable (although one barrel can be) it is your support point for you home territories.

Power Generation:
Above average. Both Eyrie and Vale have crowns, and if an early muster hits, you'll be in great shape for generating power--arguably better than even Stark, because your sea (and sea defense card) is much less appealing to Targaryen's wrath, generally speaking.

Castles AKA Flexibility to Win:
Above average. Arryn is lucky enough to be reasonably close to 7 castles in a multitude of directions. Enough so, that Arryn can viably go either North or South to get six and possibly west to secure the 7th castle (and this assumes no Essos maneuvering AT ALL).

House Cards:
I feel like I'm saying a permutation of this a lot, but, Not...terrible. Nothing amazing, but serviceable. If I were to rank it like I did the other decks... it would fall somewhere around Lannister's A tier. It absolutely has strong components, but it's limited in its rigidity. Lysa is a very solid 4 card, but you are incentivized to be aggressive so that you can later defend to make the most of her. Obviously, this is counterintuitive, because you would hope that at least ONE card would be offensively viable (you know, to help maybe take that territory you want so bad?) but there just isn't one. Royce is a perfectly serviceable 3. Varis is an interesting 2, because he specificcally allows you to anticipate every other neighbors 2 cards.  He becomes more valuable as your opponent's hand weakens. His primary flaw is that you can't bait with him... kind of a shame.  Anya is a great 1 card. Probably... top 4. She will consistently get you at least 2-3 more strength in close-ish battles and can be great to bait/tease support from allies. Borrell is the Arryn version of Salladhor.  Not quite as flexible, but still strong. Definitely incentivizes tokens in your home area. Robert Arryn is... limited. Remember how you have to be aggressive to get the territory you want to defend? The problem is that eventually you'll run out of cards and you'll be stuck with this.  His major flaw is that you have* to be attacked AND it only can be used once. Your neighbors can then wait it out for you to sacrifice to cycle, or strategize a crappy card (lookin' at you Melisandre) to remove from the game.  You of course can hold out until a bigger fish is available... but beware... you may never catch it. All in all, very defensive, but very little "oomph." They suffer a jack of all trades, master of defense issue, without as strong of unit preservation that Stark (or even Tyrell) has.

Supply:
Herein lies Arryn's biggest drawback. Where do you find 5 barrels? Blackwater is the easy choice, but that will stretch you in front of Baratheon, who definitely wants that too (unless they do well going east). Go west? Maybe. You do better against Greyjoy than Lannister does (in my opinion) and you can maybe get Seagard (with Stark or Lannister's help.) But that's only 4. Leaving the next best place at Widow's watch...yeah, not ideal. Is it worth antagonizing Stark? Maybe. But definitely not early.  They'll out last you with their mustering and better house cards.

Loans:
Given that this is a mechanic all players have, it is worth a quick talk. Given Arryn having better power generation than most houses, a loan (or two) makes a lot of sense for them. Ideally, either the supply upgrade or the extra crown +8 power upgrade are best. The extra crown cements good position on the tracks and the supply shores up your glaringly biggest weakness.

Priorities:
Similar to Greyjoy and 2nd Edition Tyrell, you have a lot of priorities that don't exactly work too well together. You absolutely need the Narrow sea. That's easy. The Bite is nice to have, but isn't a deal breaker--best if you can negotiate to keep it empty with Stark so Stark can focus on GJ or Targaryen.

More power vs. Expanding:
As zizzeus's guide suggests, this is the push and pull of your early game. As best as I can tell, the ideal move is probably Ship(+0) to narrow sea. Split the Knights (-1) to Mountains and Cracklaw (assuming Baratheon didn't go there first), and CP in the Vale.

This gives you your biggest bang for both more tokens, more supply, and another castle, and begins your early support base  in MotM.

Potential Allies/Enemies:
Most likely Allies--
Lannister
Targaryen

Most likely Enemies--
Baratheon
Tyrell

Most likely *shrugs*--
Stark
Greyjoy

Most likely irrelevant:
Martell

Discussion:
Lannister is a natural ally because 1) greyjoy is still pretty scary at round one, 2) your presence in Seagard is a HUGE buff to them keeping Riverrun and Lannisport, 3) you need Cracklaw and you'd like Blackwater, and you are less of a threat than Baratheon because of how stretched your units are to make a move on Harenhall/Stoney. It makes a lot of sense to work together.

Baratheon is a natural enemy because you must have Cracklaw to comfortably support yourself (especially because of Baratheon having initiative for raiding). This is all the more problematic because of the Baratheon nerf and them unable to take King's Landing on turn one. Between you and Martell--you are the more manageable threat.

Tyrell is rarely super relevant but given that you may want to push for Blackwater, Tyrell will likely view that as offensive. Keep in mind, you really have no counter to Loras, but you do have a solid/best counter for QoT.

Stark and Greyjoy create the genuine intrigue of your game, and if they Ally against you, you are probably done. Their cards are generally more flexible, and if no muster or clash comes... Stark will be able to wreak havoc if they want. Typically, however, Stark wants Targaryen out ASAP, because of all that territory that Stark has to manage leaves them a bit unwieldy to Dragon Attacks. One or both of these are likely to be the fulcrum of your outcome. Either winning or losing will likely come from this situation.

Targaryen has the least to fear from your cards as long as they don't attack you. This leaves a prisoner's dilemma of they can either use you to their advantage (and if you are politically savvy, yours too) or to their detriment. Targaryen seems to struggle in the early game, and having your ship or two on their side gives them massive breathing room. If you can get guaranteed tokens on a future clash for helping them keep their seas... you could be in great shape to take the win.

Martell is seemingly mostly irrelevant as they tend to have too much to juggle between Tyrell, Baratheon, and Targaryen, and their win path really isn't dependent on your choices except in (what I imagine are) rare circumstances.

So... there you go. I'm no pro, but I think that covers the bases.

House cards for Arryn of the Vale do have an interesting combination. The two value card Ser Vardis Egen becomes a 3 value card when the opponent plays a low value card. Robert Arryn is the 0 value card and he can remove the lowest value card from the opponents discard pile.

So an opponent who attacks Arryn on turn 1 has a reason to play a high value card to improve their odds of winning against Ser Vardis. But if they play a 3 or a 4 card to win, and little robin defends then they could permenantly lose that card.

The ability to aim Robin Arryn increases with time as the opponents discard pile grows.

I think that's somewhat true, but in my experience,this is much easier said than done. As a general rule, while at war, smarter opponents can read the board on what territories they can safely attack to force the Arryn players hand on a territory they can't lose. The narrow sea and Cracklaw come to mind as two territories that you never want to lose if you can help it. Is arryn really going to play Robert and guarantee a loss when they could keep that prime territory?

Opponents can, for lack of a better term, maneuver around Robert by ditching bad low cards (Catelyn, Melisandre, Ilyrrio, Cleftjaw, or Asha). To "waste" Robert when you would otherwise have a prime opportunity to play him.

Again, once cycling becomes a necessity, he feels much more like a liability than a game changer.

Last edited by JukeboxHero on 2020-May-13 21:11, edited 1x in total