Nicky 6 minutes ago

Live game anyone?

Sean_Snow 4 hours ago

3p up for u

potato 4 hours ago

come on 3p ,man

potato 5 hours ago

3p

MrMX 8 hours ago

sean, would you be up for a 3p?

Sean_Snow 11 hours ago

1 more for 6. Come save us

Sean_Snow 11 hours ago

Some one save us. 5 of 6

konrad98ft 11 hours ago

come on gues sweet last spot

konrad98ft 11 hours ago

5/6

konrad98ft 12 hours ago

3/6*

konrad98ft 12 hours ago

3.6

konrad98ft 12 hours ago

let's switch to 6p. we just finished one, so it will get full quickly

omriex7 12 hours ago

3p live 2/3

Sean_Snow 14 hours ago

Redo up

Soda-can 15 hours ago

3/6

Sean_Snow 15 hours ago

6up

Soda-can 15 hours ago

Sir Garion 15 hours ago

come play 3 p. game will be over then you can continue waiting for 6p

Soda-can 15 hours ago

Sir Garion 15 hours ago

1 more for 3p

Can he swing from a web? Oh, no!



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Ser Hodor
Son Of Hodor

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Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-01 20:20


"With 2 starting ships, I don't see myself ever attacking WSS in the opening rounds." And that's good, because tyrell is the most vulnerable house. Any other house has some means of defending: Stark can muster ships in shivering, has roose, bara has saalhador, martell has arianne, gj has the sword, lanni has the raven, but tyrell has to just pray for muster round 2, otherwise it's helpless against martell. It is absurd, let alone when you don't have a muster nor CoK for a few rounds.

When we talk about adding extra barrels, it's a good idea, this is just not the issue here. It's about the ships and losing the sea early. Also, tyrell for some reason doesn't have a strong sea card.


Tyrell's "protection" is that Martell has to traverse more sea space to threaten its core holdings, as opposed to Bara or Greyjoy's capitals, which can be completely isolated by one successful naval attack, or Lanni's capital being threatened at the start of turn 2, or Stark having to split its defenses across 3 areas on 2 sides of the map.  That extra space gives it an extra turn to catch a Muster or a Clash, which also allows it to repel an invasion reliably.

But really you are just demonstrating my point.  By attempting to "correct" for Tyrell's vulnerabilities in the early going, what you are doing is producing more stalemates. Which could pull the results further in the direction of perfect 16.7% balance (although that is not even sure, as any tiebreaker ruleset is going to favor some houses over others), but who care about the results if it creates plodding, lifeless games along the way?  We need more vulnerabilities!  Vulnerabilities create action!  Action creates the chaos that makes games memorable!

Besides which, for all this focus on Tyrell's pitiable condition in the early game, how often do you actually see them overrun immediately?  I would say it is at most 20% of games where I see Martell actually take WSS on turn 2, and less than half of those where they actually press that advantage into a full green wipeout.  Stark is the house that I see getting wiped out first the majority of the time, with Lannister still probably being at more risk than Tyrell, even after the ship buffs for them.  And yet, Stark's results are nearly the best, because if they do survive through the midgame, they wind up in a great position.

Which is where Tyrell is actually lacking, imo.  Sure, their early game position could be improved, but it is more a lack of any clear endgame path to victory that keeps them from wearing the crown. Successful Tyrell games often look really chaotic because of this, with proper conquests of Dorne or Lannister being less frequent than some oddball assortment of Starfall/Harrenhal/CCP/Flint's Finger/Lannisport/King's Landing/Riverrun.

The supply buff is a (subtle) way to help with this, by making Tyrell more of a force to be reckoned as soon as they make it to the midgame.


As for the map changes, I see a few pointers here:

1. Reach: definitely an extra barrel
2. OldTown: I said it a few times, one of the biggest and richest cities, it should have a barrel and a crown. I can't see why it's "weaker" than Riverrun or Seagard.
3. The Arbor: might have a barrel as well. Whoa, too many barrels for tyrell? Exactly, that's one of the richest houses, able to field the biggest armies.
4. The Twins: should be a stronghold because it is one of the strongest castles in Westeros, though I'm not a proponent of adding this, as it would make things easier for gj and stark, which is exactly the opposite of the discussion.
5. I've always been wondering: Why is there no Casterly Rock? Why is Lannisport the capital? Those two should be placed next to each other.

This is mainly lore stuff, rather than gameplay.  I don't know about buffing up Oldtown too much, as having two adjoining strongholds in such a protected position is already the core of Tyrell's strength.  But I do like adding the Reach barrel for both lore and gameplay reasons, as it gives a little something more to contest or bargain over in the middle of the map, where 4 houses could show some legit interest in it, but generally nobody does because 1 muster point just isn't worth investing real effort into.  Honestly, it's not even really a buff for Tyrell, since the upshot is that there will be more enemy focus on one of their "home" territories. But, more action!
Necrarch
Knight of Ni

Posts: 2,053
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Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-01 23:32
What actually really kills Tyrell is not the no muster / no CoK at t2. It's when it ALSO happens at t3, as not only Martell can take WSS, but also have the supply chain to put the knife next to your throat.

And when it happens, you're basically dead, except with an allied and extremely trustworthy Martell.

And that's just... well, sad. I am not too bad of a player, and still remember that I got with a low/mid-range Martell next to me with those cards. Well, he did not wipe me off the map, but I ended up with a shabby 1 castle / 5th place (and only because Lanni ended 6th) in spite of a decent defense. Just because of 2 bad W cards rolls, and whatever I could get after did not really matter. Bara did not help either of the parties and stayed rather neutral so can't even complain.

No other house can say "oh, well, two rounds of bad cards, I am dead". Stark can be in trouble due to a failed CoK (but that's partly their fault at least), Lanni can be in trouble due to Grey's actions (but they at least have someone to blame). Here, it's just "Ok, my game is shit and it's just due to the game being shitty to me". That annoys me so testing at least the 2 ships options is, from my point of view, a good idea. If it turns to boring and stale games, let's not keep that, but it needs to be tested before predicting things from a different setup triggering a different meta.

To notice also that the second ships adds a bit to the early/midgame, because at the first muster when it finally happens you can build 2 ships out of OT+HG instead of 3, allowing a land unit muster point.

Agreed on Hodor on one point though : Tyrell is weak in early and not great in midgame neither. And to make the balance a little better, it needs to be slightly better AND to have a slight incentive to go against Greyjoy, which is the current top house. That's what I tried to go with Margaery and was taxed of OP-ness. Perhaps just stay with 1 card with tower, gets +1 to CS if the opponent CS is strictly greater than yours could be enough. Turning a 1 card into a 2 about 60% of the time is not critical in most cases as none of the two gets to reliably win fights, but it's a true blow in Balon's face if well played. (Preferred the version "if opponent is male, which is more in lore, but harder to code )


Ser Hodor
Son Of Hodor

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Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-02 05:28
I don't know that Tyrell needs much more incentive to go after Greyjoy. It's already my preferred route with them, as fighting Martell cards is so painful, attacking into Bara's sea support and diagonally across territory that two other houses can futz with is a fool's errand, and Greyjoy lacks any counters to Loras or QOT other than Balon's basic strength (which really only impedes him, as she is about the best counter for Balon around).

Now maybe that is only true of higher level players, since noobs will be more intimidated by GJ's evident strength, the seeming greater distance (visually, as the board looks like you have to jump over red territory to get there, even if that's not entirely true), or lacking in the diplomatic acumen to get Lanni to cooperate with a big move North.  But in any case, I think it is more lack of opportunity than motive that keeps Tyrell from going North more frequently.  Extra barrels for a 4 ship navy would certainly help in that regard. And again, do so without altering any of the fundamental dynamics that currently exist between houses.
Necrarch
Knight of Ni

Posts: 2,053
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Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-02 11:06
I think we all agree on the interest of the 5th barrel to give a 4-unit army. But if it can be used more against Grey and less against Martell, it will be an important gain, as Martell's position, like Bara's, is rather balanced as of now (and actually even good at higher levels).

And I agree that Tyrell should be Grey's worst nightmare... but practically, opportunities are usually too rare and even if Sunset falls, often just a take back from Vic happens.


PawcioF
Master of 2nd places

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Member since: 2022-May-21

Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-02 11:34
I think we all agree on the interest of the 5th barrel to give a 4-unit army. But if it can be used more against Grey and less against Martell, it will be an important gain, as Martell's position, like Bara's, is rather balanced as of now (and actually even good at higher levels).

And I agree that Tyrell should be Grey's worst nightmare... but practically, opportunities are usually too rare and even if Sunset falls, often just a take back from Vic happens.

So, a strong sea card is needed. I think tyrell's alternative cards are much better, with the exception of Loras.


Necrarch
Knight of Ni

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Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-03 10:31
Actually, a strong sea card could work also against Martell, which is not good (hello Paxter!) and adding FFC or MoD cards seem very touchy.

From my point of view, there is a sort of triangle of power between G/L/T :

G beats L in a direct war.
L beats T in a direct war (in the current meta when G goes north).
T should beat G in a direct war, but they are the least efficient part of the triangle. That's, from my point of view, the part that should be reinforced.

The card that prevents mostly that is Balon, as it's THE card Grey wants to stick with to be safe in his seas. And even him is threatened by QoT if she removes a critical support typically in IMB. But QoT is usually beaten by Euron, and Victarion is still here to retake if only Sunset falls to Tyrell.

Already the 4 army would help. But that was the reason of the rework on Margaery I wanted to make - after all she is one of the Westeros cards and is just a 1 with fort, which is pretty lame : to make her a card annoying especially against Balon.

Well, let's try with just the barrel. If it's not enough, perhaps we can rethink of lady Margaery, perhaps in a less strong version than I proposed some posts above. My most "lore" version I would like would be: 1 card, still a fort, gains +1 CS and +1 sword against any male opponent. A bit more annoying to implement than the other option "against any superior CS card" but so much funnier.


Ser Hodor
Son Of Hodor

Posts: 756
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Member since: 2016-Mar-20

Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-03 19:46
Yeah, the problem with a strong sea card is that it is not so much weak cards that impede Tyrell's route north, it's Lanni.  If Lanni helps Tyrell (even if it is just raiding GS from the port, really), they don't need anything special from the cards to bust in.  If Lanni helps GJ, then any card suped-up enough to break through a united naval front single-handed is just going to be wildly OP.

Maybe another route for a Marge ability would be an option to cancel all neutral support.  I don't really know how useful that would be for the task at hand, but it would be a novel and unique ability that could produce more interesting strategic wrinkles than a straight boost to combat strength.
Necrarch
Knight of Ni

Posts: 2,053
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Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-06 09:43
Hah, interesting indeed. Or even make it work like Walder Frey in... was it AFFC ? If a neutral support goes your opponent's way, it is instead granted to you ?

What I see is that if Lanni helps GJ T cannot go north. Fair enough, but then Grey is north and in BoI, and if he ruins Stark's life too hard, at least he should sooner or later stay neutral for an attack on Sunset.

However, which is more annoying is when Grey is in Golden Sound makes IMB unraidable. That's where usually QoT is used against Balon, while Lanni raids from LP port if he still has LP, but you need no Euron and no Stark support in BoI (or at least neutrality).

That's not easy !


Ser Hodor
Son Of Hodor

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Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-06 22:42
It's not easy, but I would also argue that it should not be easy to break through a GJ navy that has consolidated three adjacent sea areas and is committing to heavy defense.
Necrarch
Knight of Ni

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Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-07 10:38
Right, it should be difficult. But not impossible, and that's where it is hard to balance !


Necrarch
Knight of Ni

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Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-27 11:43
To notice in the Tyrell description of the Houses in the rules :

"Even as their fertile lands are considered the heart of chivalry in Westeros, this proud family has never worn a crown."

Would really feel bad to not even have a knight at start, right ?


Ser Hodor
Son Of Hodor

Posts: 756
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Member since: 2016-Mar-20

Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2023-Feb-27 18:18
It also says they have "fertile lands" though, despite having less barrels than the deserts of Dorne or barren North.
Gacek15
Squire

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Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2024-Jan-13 18:59
What if you made Margery or the other 1 card say: +1CS if the embattled area is a sea area"? Just a thought.
Necrarch
Knight of Ni

Posts: 2,053
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Member since: 2019-Feb-01

Topic: Thronemaster "home made" version to rebalance 6p
Posted: 2024-Jan-13 23:55
What if you made Margery or the other 1 card say: +1CS if the embattled area is a sea area"? Just a thought.
Not sure that helps a lot, as it will just turn a 1 into a 2, but that's an idea. Not very thematic with Margaery though.



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