You WANT to hold Bay Of Ice as long as possible, and of course I'd rather it be the front line in the Greyjoy fight rather than Winterfell. But losing it is not even 1/4 as catastrophic as losing the Narrow Sea, which is key to the mobility of your troops and allows you to fight back against Greyjoy even after they take a castle or two.
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Say somehting clever!
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I don't know how this idea seems to have caught on, but here is the only time you should not fill Shivering Sea with a ship immediately:
Never. Never, ever, under any circumstances, should you not have a ship in Shivering Sea once you reach the first CP phase on the first turn.
I keep seeing it lately, where it's turn 4 and Stark has no ship in the Shivering Sea, and every single time it ends with that Stark seeming to be genuinely surprised when Bara decides to walk in the back door.
Never. Never, ever, under any circumstances, should you not have a ship in Shivering Sea once you reach the first CP phase on the first turn.
I keep seeing it lately, where it's turn 4 and Stark has no ship in the Shivering Sea, and every single time it ends with that Stark seeming to be genuinely surprised when Bara decides to walk in the back door.
So I don't know if anyone here has played starcraft or any other rts games but stark strikes me as the house most in need of a build order.
We all seem agree that cp* in winterfel turn 1 is the best move and ser hodor says put a ship in shivering sea always. The other muster point should be in bay of ice/port of winterfel unless lannister and greyjoy are already fighting it seems in which case a footman is an acceptable alternative?
To deepen our understanding of house stark and what separates average stark players from great ones I think it would be helpful to (at least try to) draw up a priority list for:
A) how to spend each muster point
B) in what order to take each Northern territory
Already I feel like the main variations in boardstate will be how much pressure comes from baratheon and greyjoy and how soon it lands on your doorstep. Also westeros cards with no support orders, defence orders or consolidate power being hindrances along with an early clash.
I feel that deeper analysis will reveal one common factor amongst top starks - economy of movement. They are constantly mustering and spreading out to the most important territories in as few moves/turns as possible.
By the way Ser Hodor I love reading these forum posts you started - my hats off to you.
We all seem agree that cp* in winterfel turn 1 is the best move and ser hodor says put a ship in shivering sea always. The other muster point should be in bay of ice/port of winterfel unless lannister and greyjoy are already fighting it seems in which case a footman is an acceptable alternative?
To deepen our understanding of house stark and what separates average stark players from great ones I think it would be helpful to (at least try to) draw up a priority list for:
A) how to spend each muster point
B) in what order to take each Northern territory
Already I feel like the main variations in boardstate will be how much pressure comes from baratheon and greyjoy and how soon it lands on your doorstep. Also westeros cards with no support orders, defence orders or consolidate power being hindrances along with an early clash.
I feel that deeper analysis will reveal one common factor amongst top starks - economy of movement. They are constantly mustering and spreading out to the most important territories in as few moves/turns as possible.
By the way Ser Hodor I love reading these forum posts you started - my hats off to you.
Ah, for a former Protoss (poor) player, the idea of BOs for Stark is good.
But a bit like trying a fast expand, the order in WH is a first big variation:
CP is Nexus first. Full economy but not safe with a Bara rushing with two marches.
M0 is safer for Narrow, but can lead to Karhold, MC and WW. MC is the worst choice - who cares about a castle then and frighten GJ?
WW is quite good because supply can quickly become an issue.
But the most classic is probably KH for CPs
And then you add cp* and diplomacy and all gets messy
But a bit like trying a fast expand, the order in WH is a first big variation:
CP is Nexus first. Full economy but not safe with a Bara rushing with two marches.
M0 is safer for Narrow, but can lead to Karhold, MC and WW. MC is the worst choice - who cares about a castle then and frighten GJ?
WW is quite good because supply can quickly become an issue.
But the most classic is probably KH for CPs
And then you add cp* and diplomacy and all gets messy
Ah, for a former Protoss (poor) player, sounds like you must construct additional pylons Necrarch.
I think we can isolate a few main variables and draw up a priority list for each. The main variables being aggressive greyjoy, aggressive baratheon peace greyjoy/baratheon double team (aka I'm screwed variation).
Of the four above peace and I'm screwed/double team are probably the least worth analysis as they either allow significant leeway from optimal expansion or are simply incredibly hard to survive.
The idea is to take every Northern territory and rank it in order of priority ie
Situation 1 aggressive greyjoy
1. Narrow sea (same for all variations)
2. Shivering sea
3. Bay of ice
4. Port of winterfel
5. The eyrie (not always possible to take early but should be done ASAP)
6. Karhold (above castle black as can not be raided from bay of ice)
7. Castle Black
8. Widows watch
9. Moat cailin (as a speedbump to winterfel)
10. The twins (for raiding seagard)
And so on...just a rough draft off the top of my head to get the conversation started.
I think we can isolate a few main variables and draw up a priority list for each. The main variables being aggressive greyjoy, aggressive baratheon peace greyjoy/baratheon double team (aka I'm screwed variation).
Of the four above peace and I'm screwed/double team are probably the least worth analysis as they either allow significant leeway from optimal expansion or are simply incredibly hard to survive.
The idea is to take every Northern territory and rank it in order of priority ie
Situation 1 aggressive greyjoy
1. Narrow sea (same for all variations)
2. Shivering sea
3. Bay of ice
4. Port of winterfel
5. The eyrie (not always possible to take early but should be done ASAP)
6. Karhold (above castle black as can not be raided from bay of ice)
7. Castle Black
8. Widows watch
9. Moat cailin (as a speedbump to winterfel)
10. The twins (for raiding seagard)
And so on...just a rough draft off the top of my head to get the conversation started.
I like the idea of a build order for House Stark. I think this is because my strategy as a Stark player is almost always the same, regardless of diplomacy and Westeros cards.
Obviously it's quite impossible to define a build order that suits any situation, but here are my general thoughts:
1. Stark needs his 3 sea areas asap (i.e. March+1 in the Shivering Sea and CP* in Winterfell during 1st round)
2. Tokens before supplies. Stark indeed needs to boost his supply during midgame, especially to be able to pile up 3 ships in the same area, usually the Shivering Sea. But the North provides a huge amount of land areas to split Stark units if some early Mustering comes up. Hence, I usually march from WH to Karhold during round 1, so that I can secure a stable income of power tokens afterwards.
3. Next, my goal is to defeat the neutral forces in the Eyrie. It's not always possible to do it early (i.e. during round 2 or 3), but there are many options to do so: sea support, support from MotM, mustering of a siege engine... While planning my invasion in the Eyrie, I might go to Moat Cailin (if it is safe), or to a land area with a barrel, depending on Greyjoy strategy. IMO the Eyrie is vital to Stark, mostly because it represents a safe CP location and another barrel. It's always a huge relief when I finally get there.
The rest will highly depend on what Greyjoy and Bara are doing, so I won't discuss the countless options there are. One last thing though, the port of Winterfell is rarely on my wish list during the early game. I feel like land units are much more valuable once Stark has 1 ship in each of his 3 seas. I might muster in this port if there are many early musterings, or if Greyjoy is at peace with Lanni and didn't sail to Bay of Ice by round 4. That way, going north should cost him Victarion or Balon at least. However if Greyjoy quickly takes Bay of Ice, I always make sure I can retreat to the port, so that I can later raid or attack from there.
Obviously it's quite impossible to define a build order that suits any situation, but here are my general thoughts:
1. Stark needs his 3 sea areas asap (i.e. March+1 in the Shivering Sea and CP* in Winterfell during 1st round)
2. Tokens before supplies. Stark indeed needs to boost his supply during midgame, especially to be able to pile up 3 ships in the same area, usually the Shivering Sea. But the North provides a huge amount of land areas to split Stark units if some early Mustering comes up. Hence, I usually march from WH to Karhold during round 1, so that I can secure a stable income of power tokens afterwards.
3. Next, my goal is to defeat the neutral forces in the Eyrie. It's not always possible to do it early (i.e. during round 2 or 3), but there are many options to do so: sea support, support from MotM, mustering of a siege engine... While planning my invasion in the Eyrie, I might go to Moat Cailin (if it is safe), or to a land area with a barrel, depending on Greyjoy strategy. IMO the Eyrie is vital to Stark, mostly because it represents a safe CP location and another barrel. It's always a huge relief when I finally get there.
The rest will highly depend on what Greyjoy and Bara are doing, so I won't discuss the countless options there are. One last thing though, the port of Winterfell is rarely on my wish list during the early game. I feel like land units are much more valuable once Stark has 1 ship in each of his 3 seas. I might muster in this port if there are many early musterings, or if Greyjoy is at peace with Lanni and didn't sail to Bay of Ice by round 4. That way, going north should cost him Victarion or Balon at least. However if Greyjoy quickly takes Bay of Ice, I always make sure I can retreat to the port, so that I can later raid or attack from there.
I like the idea of a build order for House Stark. I think this is because my strategy as a Stark player is almost always the same, regardless of diplomacy and Westeros cards.
Obviously it's quite impossible to define a build order that suits any situation, but here are my general thoughts:
1. Stark needs his 3 sea areas asap (i.e. March+1 in the Shivering Sea and CP* in Winterfell during 1st round)
2. Tokens before supplies. Stark indeed needs to boost his supply during midgame, especially to be able to pile up 3 ships in the same area, usually the Shivering Sea. But the North provides a huge amount of land areas to split Stark units if some early Mustering comes up. Hence, I usually march from WH to Karhold during round 1, so that I can secure a stable income of power tokens afterwards.
3. Next, my goal is to defeat the neutral forces in the Eyrie. It's not always possible to do it early (i.e. during round 2 or 3), but there are many options to do so: sea support, support from MotM, mustering of a siege engine... While planning my invasion in the Eyrie, I might go to Moat Cailin (if it is safe), or to a land area with a barrel, depending on Greyjoy strategy. IMO the Eyrie is vital to Stark, mostly because it represents a safe CP location and another barrel. It's always a huge relief when I finally get there.
The rest will highly depend on what Greyjoy and Bara are doing, so I won't discuss the countless options there are. One last thing though, the port of Winterfell is rarely on my wish list during the early game. I feel like land units are much more valuable once Stark has 1 ship in each of his 3 seas. I might muster in this port if there are many early musterings, or if Greyjoy is at peace with Lanni and didn't sail to Bay of Ice by round 4. That way, going north should cost him Victarion or Balon at least. However if Greyjoy quickly takes Bay of Ice, I always make sure I can retreat to the port, so that I can later raid or attack from there.
Defending the Narrow Sea is very important and Winterfell is also a key territory where you usually have fight against Greyjoy. You should put at least 2 ships in the Shivering Sea ASAP(3 there if you already have sufficient supply)
and also a ship in port of White Harbour for both defending the Narrow Sea and gainning PT.
The worst thing for you is that Greyjoy attacks Bay of Ice early while Baratheon
musters a lot of ships, waiting for a clash to attack the Narrow Sea. You're very screwed then. If a clash happens early, things are really bad.
For defending Greyjoy, taking the Eyrie early is not bad. Yes, you may lose Winterfell. But you must pay attention to track positions. Always have the ability to put 3 march orders and a support in White Harbour while still having somewhere to gain power tokens. If you have at least one star: if you march earlier than Greyjoy, you can kill his units in Winterfell(however, clever Greyjoy players put knights and sieges in the Stoneny Shore); if you march later than Greyjoy, you can take Winterfell back when the turn ends. King's court track position is the only thing you need in the early stage.
Obviously it's quite impossible to define a build order that suits any situation, but here are my general thoughts:
1. Stark needs his 3 sea areas asap (i.e. March+1 in the Shivering Sea and CP* in Winterfell during 1st round)
2. Tokens before supplies. Stark indeed needs to boost his supply during midgame, especially to be able to pile up 3 ships in the same area, usually the Shivering Sea. But the North provides a huge amount of land areas to split Stark units if some early Mustering comes up. Hence, I usually march from WH to Karhold during round 1, so that I can secure a stable income of power tokens afterwards.
3. Next, my goal is to defeat the neutral forces in the Eyrie. It's not always possible to do it early (i.e. during round 2 or 3), but there are many options to do so: sea support, support from MotM, mustering of a siege engine... While planning my invasion in the Eyrie, I might go to Moat Cailin (if it is safe), or to a land area with a barrel, depending on Greyjoy strategy. IMO the Eyrie is vital to Stark, mostly because it represents a safe CP location and another barrel. It's always a huge relief when I finally get there.
The rest will highly depend on what Greyjoy and Bara are doing, so I won't discuss the countless options there are. One last thing though, the port of Winterfell is rarely on my wish list during the early game. I feel like land units are much more valuable once Stark has 1 ship in each of his 3 seas. I might muster in this port if there are many early musterings, or if Greyjoy is at peace with Lanni and didn't sail to Bay of Ice by round 4. That way, going north should cost him Victarion or Balon at least. However if Greyjoy quickly takes Bay of Ice, I always make sure I can retreat to the port, so that I can later raid or attack from there.
Defending the Narrow Sea is very important and Winterfell is also a key territory where you usually have fight against Greyjoy. You should put at least 2 ships in the Shivering Sea ASAP(3 there if you already have sufficient supply)
and also a ship in port of White Harbour for both defending the Narrow Sea and gainning PT.
The worst thing for you is that Greyjoy attacks Bay of Ice early while Baratheon
musters a lot of ships, waiting for a clash to attack the Narrow Sea. You're very screwed then. If a clash happens early, things are really bad.
For defending Greyjoy, taking the Eyrie early is not bad. Yes, you may lose Winterfell. But you must pay attention to track positions. Always have the ability to put 3 march orders and a support in White Harbour while still having somewhere to gain power tokens. If you have at least one star: if you march earlier than Greyjoy, you can kill his units in Winterfell(however, clever Greyjoy players put knights and sieges in the Stoneny Shore); if you march later than Greyjoy, you can take Winterfell back when the turn ends. King's court track position is the only thing you need in the early stage.
Have to say that I am not a great fan of the ship in port of WH.
- For support, you have usually places that require that more that order (Shivering is a must, White Harbor against Grey to defend both WF and MC)
- For PTs, between Karhold, Eyrié if taken, Castle Black if Grey is not in BoI, it does only bring one PT and not two, i.e. the same as if you CPed in other safe places like Widow's Watch or Fingers, Stark usually does not miss spots to place CP orders.
Should you have had a 7 ships limit, won't say, but only with 6, I prefer having 3 in Shivering, 1 in Narrow, 1 in BoI and 1 in port of Winterfell if GJ is friendly, and if not, the one in BoI is in Narrow for better defense.
The issue with ship in port of WH is that it does not help def if you CP or if in WoL, and is easily destroyed if WH falls. The only case where it is really useful is in case of Muster / GoT events where it instantly brings one PT, but I'll usually put an M-1 very soon afterwards.
- For support, you have usually places that require that more that order (Shivering is a must, White Harbor against Grey to defend both WF and MC)
- For PTs, between Karhold, Eyrié if taken, Castle Black if Grey is not in BoI, it does only bring one PT and not two, i.e. the same as if you CPed in other safe places like Widow's Watch or Fingers, Stark usually does not miss spots to place CP orders.
Should you have had a 7 ships limit, won't say, but only with 6, I prefer having 3 in Shivering, 1 in Narrow, 1 in BoI and 1 in port of Winterfell if GJ is friendly, and if not, the one in BoI is in Narrow for better defense.
The issue with ship in port of WH is that it does not help def if you CP or if in WoL, and is easily destroyed if WH falls. The only case where it is really useful is in case of Muster / GoT events where it instantly brings one PT, but I'll usually put an M-1 very soon afterwards.
Have to say that I am not a great fan of the ship in port of WH.
- For support, you have usually places that require that more that order (Shivering is a must, White Harbor against Grey to defend both WF and MC)
- For PTs, between Karhold, Eyrié if taken, Castle Black if Grey is not in BoI, it does only bring one PT and not two, i.e. the same as if you CPed in other safe places like Widow's Watch or Fingers, Stark usually does not miss spots to place CP orders.
Should you have had a 7 ships limit, won't say, but only with 6, I prefer having 3 in Shivering, 1 in Narrow, 1 in BoI and 1 in port of Winterfell if GJ is friendly, and if not, the one in BoI is in Narrow for better defense.
The issue with ship in port of WH is that it does not help def if you CP or if in WoL, and is easily destroyed if WH falls. The only case where it is really useful is in case of Muster / GoT events where it instantly brings one PT, but I'll usually put an M-1 very soon afterwards.
The situation is not always that good. Castle Black and Winterfell are not safe positions to gain power tokens and it's not easy to take the Eyrie early, espeicially if Bara raids you on sea. Karhold is not safe if Greyjoy captures either Winterfell or Castle Black and is higher than you on IT track. For Widow's Watch, The Fingers--they are pleasant places to place your siege engines and put march orders there. Cp for that ship is optional.
What's more, you can put a support there. Sometimes it's a must to put it there to defend the Narrow Sea.
If you lose that ship, usually you have lost the Narrow Sea. You already lose the game by losing the Narrow Sea, anyway.
- For support, you have usually places that require that more that order (Shivering is a must, White Harbor against Grey to defend both WF and MC)
- For PTs, between Karhold, Eyrié if taken, Castle Black if Grey is not in BoI, it does only bring one PT and not two, i.e. the same as if you CPed in other safe places like Widow's Watch or Fingers, Stark usually does not miss spots to place CP orders.
Should you have had a 7 ships limit, won't say, but only with 6, I prefer having 3 in Shivering, 1 in Narrow, 1 in BoI and 1 in port of Winterfell if GJ is friendly, and if not, the one in BoI is in Narrow for better defense.
The issue with ship in port of WH is that it does not help def if you CP or if in WoL, and is easily destroyed if WH falls. The only case where it is really useful is in case of Muster / GoT events where it instantly brings one PT, but I'll usually put an M-1 very soon afterwards.
The situation is not always that good. Castle Black and Winterfell are not safe positions to gain power tokens and it's not easy to take the Eyrie early, espeicially if Bara raids you on sea. Karhold is not safe if Greyjoy captures either Winterfell or Castle Black and is higher than you on IT track. For Widow's Watch, The Fingers--they are pleasant places to place your siege engines and put march orders there. Cp for that ship is optional.
What's more, you can put a support there. Sometimes it's a must to put it there to defend the Narrow Sea.
If you lose that ship, usually you have lost the Narrow Sea. You already lose the game by losing the Narrow Sea, anyway.
Have to say that I am not a great fan of the ship in port of WH.
- For support, you have usually places that require that more that order (Shivering is a must, White Harbor against Grey to defend both WF and MC)
- For PTs, between Karhold, Eyrié if taken, Castle Black if Grey is not in BoI, it does only bring one PT and not two, i.e. the same as if you CPed in other safe places like Widow's Watch or Fingers, Stark usually does not miss spots to place CP orders.
Should you have had a 7 ships limit, won't say, but only with 6, I prefer having 3 in Shivering, 1 in Narrow, 1 in BoI and 1 in port of Winterfell if GJ is friendly, and if not, the one in BoI is in Narrow for better defense.
The issue with ship in port of WH is that it does not help def if you CP or if in WoL, and is easily destroyed if WH falls. The only case where it is really useful is in case of Muster / GoT events where it instantly brings one PT, but I'll usually put an M-1 very soon afterwards.
When Web of Lies happens, if you are lower than bara on IT track(no super Stannis), a march +1 in the Shivering Sea is already enough for defending your sea(or M-1 in the Shivering Sea, D+2 in the Narrow Sea). If Bara has the blade, you lose the Sea anyway.
- For support, you have usually places that require that more that order (Shivering is a must, White Harbor against Grey to defend both WF and MC)
- For PTs, between Karhold, Eyrié if taken, Castle Black if Grey is not in BoI, it does only bring one PT and not two, i.e. the same as if you CPed in other safe places like Widow's Watch or Fingers, Stark usually does not miss spots to place CP orders.
Should you have had a 7 ships limit, won't say, but only with 6, I prefer having 3 in Shivering, 1 in Narrow, 1 in BoI and 1 in port of Winterfell if GJ is friendly, and if not, the one in BoI is in Narrow for better defense.
The issue with ship in port of WH is that it does not help def if you CP or if in WoL, and is easily destroyed if WH falls. The only case where it is really useful is in case of Muster / GoT events where it instantly brings one PT, but I'll usually put an M-1 very soon afterwards.
When Web of Lies happens, if you are lower than bara on IT track(no super Stannis), a march +1 in the Shivering Sea is already enough for defending your sea(or M-1 in the Shivering Sea, D+2 in the Narrow Sea). If Bara has the blade, you lose the Sea anyway.
Have to say that I am not a great fan of the ship in port of WH.
- For support, you have usually places that require that more that order (Shivering is a must, White Harbor against Grey to defend both WF and MC)
- For PTs, between Karhold, Eyrié if taken, Castle Black if Grey is not in BoI, it does only bring one PT and not two, i.e. the same as if you CPed in other safe places like Widow's Watch or Fingers, Stark usually does not miss spots to place CP orders.
Should you have had a 7 ships limit, won't say, but only with 6, I prefer having 3 in Shivering, 1 in Narrow, 1 in BoI and 1 in port of Winterfell if GJ is friendly, and if not, the one in BoI is in Narrow for better defense.
The issue with ship in port of WH is that it does not help def if you CP or if in WoL, and is easily destroyed if WH falls. The only case where it is really useful is in case of Muster / GoT events where it instantly brings one PT, but I'll usually put an M-1 very soon afterwards.
1 in port of Winterfell and 1 in Bay of Ice is really, really bad. Catelyn cannot counter Vic. What's more, both Balon and Vic has no sword icon. After you lose the battle, 2 ships stuck in the port is a disaster for you who is lack of supply in the early stage.
- For support, you have usually places that require that more that order (Shivering is a must, White Harbor against Grey to defend both WF and MC)
- For PTs, between Karhold, Eyrié if taken, Castle Black if Grey is not in BoI, it does only bring one PT and not two, i.e. the same as if you CPed in other safe places like Widow's Watch or Fingers, Stark usually does not miss spots to place CP orders.
Should you have had a 7 ships limit, won't say, but only with 6, I prefer having 3 in Shivering, 1 in Narrow, 1 in BoI and 1 in port of Winterfell if GJ is friendly, and if not, the one in BoI is in Narrow for better defense.
The issue with ship in port of WH is that it does not help def if you CP or if in WoL, and is easily destroyed if WH falls. The only case where it is really useful is in case of Muster / GoT events where it instantly brings one PT, but I'll usually put an M-1 very soon afterwards.
1 in port of Winterfell and 1 in Bay of Ice is really, really bad. Catelyn cannot counter Vic. What's more, both Balon and Vic has no sword icon. After you lose the battle, 2 ships stuck in the port is a disaster for you who is lack of supply in the early stage.
- Side note, ZWC - try not to post three separated posts to answer one, group them together if you can, please.
- Agreed that the two ships in somewhat an issue when they are stuck in port, but they can be useful later with an M+1 to push GJ to get out a good card. If you miss supply that can be annoying indeed, however, in later stages the second ship in port does really help if GJ is undecisive.
- Agreed that the two ships in somewhat an issue when they are stuck in port, but they can be useful later with an M+1 to push GJ to get out a good card. If you miss supply that can be annoying indeed, however, in later stages the second ship in port does really help if GJ is undecisive.
Defending the Narrow Sea is very important and Winterfell is also a key territory where you usually have fight against Greyjoy. You should put at least 2 ships in the Shivering Sea ASAP(3 there if you already have sufficient supply)
A very relevant point indeed:
- If several musterings occur during the early game it's a good idea to put at least 1 additional ship in the Shivering Sea. The additional support will come in handy against Greyjoy and Bara as well.
- If not I would rather use an hypothetical CP* order to muster more land units, in order to explore the vast North (unless Bara ships look really threatening). But I guess it's a matter of personal taste.
However, I agree with Necrarch that quickly mustering a ship in WH seems to be suboptimal. I think so because it's almost impossible for Bara to safely invade the Narrow Sea by the end of round 3. I did not do all the math but I guess Bara would need at least 1 mustering during Westeros phase, plus the sword and 1 star order at least, while Stark is left with no special order and only 1 ship in each of his seas. Seems unlikely, and requires some kind of misplay from Stark. And if Bara is bold enough to sail north without these requirements, then Martell will look at Bara homeland like it's free real estate.
A very relevant point indeed:
- If several musterings occur during the early game it's a good idea to put at least 1 additional ship in the Shivering Sea. The additional support will come in handy against Greyjoy and Bara as well.
- If not I would rather use an hypothetical CP* order to muster more land units, in order to explore the vast North (unless Bara ships look really threatening). But I guess it's a matter of personal taste.
However, I agree with Necrarch that quickly mustering a ship in WH seems to be suboptimal. I think so because it's almost impossible for Bara to safely invade the Narrow Sea by the end of round 3. I did not do all the math but I guess Bara would need at least 1 mustering during Westeros phase, plus the sword and 1 star order at least, while Stark is left with no special order and only 1 ship in each of his seas. Seems unlikely, and requires some kind of misplay from Stark. And if Bara is bold enough to sail north without these requirements, then Martell will look at Bara homeland like it's free real estate.