Ser Hodor- i dont know why u did so much work toward next round, not waiting for the clash to be resolved.
We lost the initiative and won the sword.
Untill 3rd bid on kings court will be resolved i think all order placement for round 3 need to wait ^^

If he is smart, he will run away from riverun not letting ur cersei do the job, thus i expect no raid order from him out there (u have nothing to lose if u put cp on HH, as u are pennyles now ) Just march +0 on sunset and defence or raid order on the single ship. -1 march order on lannisport and cp on HH

Last edited by Furtum Vitae on 2018-Sep-09 02:08, edited 2x in total

I think I mistook the current round of West cards that were showing for the following round’s. So I was planning around no muster, no clash, and no defense orders. Obviously a clash will throw things into flux.

Revisiting this after a year, and my results with Lannister have improved greatly, actually surpassing my win rate with Martell.

I've taken to starting with march+1 in Stoney Sept and CP* in Lannisport, with the idea to change to either two marches if Baratheon is coming for King's Landing, or two CP orders if Greyjoy is hostile or Bara is doing a standard CP opening.  If I begin by marching, I take Harrenhall, Blackwater and Riverrun, which nets me a lot in all cases of Muster, Supply, or Game Of Thrones but in the unfortunate case of Clash usually leaves me enough to grab the blade for its deterrent factor.  Taking Riverrun in this manner should also not be as threatening to GJ, since if you game it out, even if I am able to muster directly into Ironman's Bay, without the CP* points I will not be able to bring enough force to bear to take Pyke before he has a chance to take the sea back.

Beyond that, I would just reiterate to constantly be looking for spots for Cersei or Tyrion to cause trouble, and don't pass up the opportunity to pounce on Greyjoy if they are weakened or leave themselves with only bad cards.  Also, while I am generally an advocate for attacking the strongest house rather than the weakest, in Lannister's case I think there is more merit in attacking whichever southern house is already being invaded by Martell. CCP and the Reach are not going to be the top priority for Bara/Tyrell when they are being double-teamed, and holding them opens up a much better line of attack on Kings Landing/Highgarden.

One additional thing: have you had the opportunity to play with the latest FAQ that adds a ship in port of Lannisport?
Greatly adds options and incentivizes a GJ to make peace and play two matches on sea.

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Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
France WCup team
2021: Bronze
2022: Silver

One additional thing: have you had the opportunity to play with the latest FAQ that adds a ship in port of Lannisport?
Greatly adds options and incentivizes a GJ to make peace and play two matches on sea. Two marches on sea and one for troops, if you use new orders from MOD expansion. But yes, that additional ship in port is invaluable.

Another ship would completely change everything, to the extent that in that case I would definitely want to be Lannister over Greyjoy. The complexity of the opening order sets and raven calculation would be increased by an order of magnitude that I'm not going to get into here, unless thronemaster implements it someday.

I am staying on the vanilla 6p, and it is in the FFG FAQ. It is by the way probably OP on 3p / 4p without GJ where Lanni is already strong, I will only implement this in 5-6.

But that does change a lot, and perhaps one day... After all, that would probably be a very easy change to set up, just an initial configuration setup, not something complex like wilding cards.

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Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
France WCup team
2021: Bronze
2022: Silver

To expand on something I said earlier about keeping an eye out for Tyrion/Cersei opportunities, I'm really starting to think that the key to Lannister success is to embrace their difficult deck.  While other decks have 2-3 "special" weapons in their arsenal, Lannister has 5 unique threats, with Jaime being the only truly "vanilla" card in the lot. This makes their juggling act much more complicated than any other house, but also means that especially in the late game, Lannister can be an absolute terror that no one can fully account for.

With the caveat that you always need to temper your opportunism with an awareness of the overall board dynamics and whether striking at an already-weakened neighbor will actually benefit you or their other opponent more, I do think the key to Lannister is to develop an internal scanner that is always looking around for openings to put their special talents to use.  This gets complicated because what constitutes an "opening" can vary wildly from card to card.  To wit:

Is there a lone, unsupported troop that you can strike with overwhelming force?  Cersei can devastate its owner's entire defense or attacking strategy, or scuttle their CP operations.

Is a neighbor down to their last 1-2 cards?  Tyrion can cast a large shadow indeed, especially if they don't see him coming.

Do you have a mass of footman in a position to attack?  Even if Kevan can't win, forcing an opponent to trade their 4 card to defend against your 1 is usually worth losing a footman.

Or has that opponent used one of this big cards early on?  The Hound looks built for defense, but his middling strength is often enough to defeat your opponent's worst cards, with his forts defending your probing unit in defeat if he succeeds in forcing out something higher.

Are there 2-3 troops massed on your border, without overwhelming support at their back?  That's a meal for Gregor.

Is it Feast For Crows, or just a poor round after a Clash/Wildling Attack ate up all the gold in the realm?  Find somewhere to win with Tywin, even in an otherwise-meaningless battle.  When coffers are low and a Clash hits, a 2 token leap can swing the balance of the entire game.


Lannister is genuinely difficult, as you start with your back against the wall and no mistake.  But if you can get your feet under you and get practiced with their deck, you will find that more than any other house, it gives you a lid for every pot.

Last edited by Ser Hodor on 2019-Aug-16 15:01, edited 1x in total

Having never play tested any of this, my initial thought would be:

Greyjoy now has almost no reason to go after Lannister instead of Stark. It would take both ships and Balon to overcome 5 strength defense on the opening round, and you would only succeed in pushing the ship to Sunset Sea while reinforcements are built in the port.  Given this, GJ should be amenable to alliance, in which case I'd probably stick with a 3 CP opening, with a Defense +2 in the Golden Sound to discourage trickery.

Alternatively, if you are confident that GJ is not going to turn his coat on you in the first round, the extra token from the port gives you much more freedom to immediately expand overland.  Especially when I see Bara going straight for King's Landing, I prefer to move all troops to Stoney Sept, then the knight to Harrenhall and footmen to Blackwater and Riverrun.  Harrenhall can support Blackwater the following turn, since Bara will not be in Crackclaw yet to raid it, and that should give you some more time to muster in Riverrun and move troops around on turn 3 to refill Stoney, and retake Blackwater if Baratheon made a hard push on it.

Last edited by Ser Hodor on 2019-Aug-23 16:18, edited 1x in total

What is also cool is to take into account the Raven to do "half orders" that go by pair.

I haven't tested it, but I believe orders as following is rather consistent :

M-1 Ship in port
M0 Stoney Sept
CP* Lannisport
Def+2 Golden Sound

Of course, before playing, first talk to GJ to strongly incite him to go against Stark.

When you see the GJ orders, use raven to fix yours.

Typical GJ orders are :

- both marches on ships, CP in Pyke and GWW
-> that can mean an attack on Golden Sound, but is it really bad ? Probably the new standard. You def at 4 using your M-0, but if you want to play super safe, use S+1 in Ship in port to def at 5 (if he uses Balon AND blade, widely worth it!), you can still recruit an extra ship in GS with your CP*.

- march on ship in IB, CP in port, CP in GWW, march on Pyke
-> very common now, don't like it as GJ with the extra Lanni ship.
If you want to be at war with GJ, play M+1 on Golden Sound. Deadly force of two ships +1 go to IB, he has to cancel his march in IB and needs Balon to def and you play your M+1 last thing in turn, or he attacks before in GS but leaves IB opened for a recruit from RR.
If you want to be peaceful, you can also put S+1 in Lannisport to ensure the win in RR, but I still prefer the CP*. Possibly put CP in ship in port can be well, really depends on your relationship with GJ.

- march on ship in port, march on Pyke, CP in GWW, support in IB.
-> Just put S+1 in Golden Sound. Your support is worth more than his and it is not an aggressive move. Raid in GS is much less peaceful.

- march on pyke, march in GWW, CP in port, support in IB.
-> Usually means the GJ puts all in GW and sees then what to do. I believe S+1 in Golden Sound is good as well, but you can also put the M+1 there to threaten IB... or just put a ship in Sunset.

As for the CP*, do the needful to have ships both in GS and port, then put the possible remainder in a footman in Lannisport or an SE if Riverrun has fallen.

I think this covers most "technical" situations, but do remember that more than ever, an alliance Lanni / GJ is beneficial to both, so diplomacy is still the key!

Good luck, with that extra ship, no reason now for Lanni to have lower results as Bara, Stark, GJ or Martell (and the lowest in stats should now be Tyrell).

Last edited by Necrarch on 2019-Aug-26 10:32, edited 1x in total

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Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
France WCup team
2021: Bronze
2022: Silver

great analysis

Last edited by tworiverstabac on 2020-Mar-31 20:16, edited 1x in total

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Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey

march on ship in IB, CP in port, CP in GWW, march on Pyke
-> very common now, don't like it as GJ with the extra Lanni ship.
If you want to be at war with GJ, play M+1 on Golden Sound. Deadly force of two ships +1 go to IB, he has to cancel his march in IB and needs Balon to def and you play your M+1 last thing in turn, or he attacks before in GS but leaves IB opened for a recruit from RR.
.
Not sure I follow how this works in practice. If you go -1 port march first march, then second march 0 from Stoney sept either into rr (or for this example gj is already there so just go to harrenhal probably ideal play) then what is the rationale above for gj revoking their ship march instead of just taking golden sound and pushing you to either port or sunset sea making your +1 march at sea not really impactful?

You can’t take gj sea first turn due to balon, and don’t want to march and lose until their march is done with else your ships all are defeated, so best you can do is force an almost equal card out of them at sea, but they might as well just take golden sound and hold riverrun in this scenario, no? I know you can move a ship into sunset and then still attack iron bay second march if you don’t mind losing that routed ship with their sea march, but not any gain there really.

Would be curious to hear more thoughts here for ideas when you want to be an aggressive Lannister!

It is always better to be at peace with GJ, and this move will definitely be a war declaration. However, if you're already at war, that's not a problem.

Depends also on the march split of GJ.
Anyway, as Lanni, you start by your M-1 from port to Golden Sound. So have two ships with M+1 in Golden Sound.

Now:
Case 1- GJ attacks from IB to GS. If GJ put M-1 in IB, that almost forces him to use Balon (0 vs 2), you retreat to Sunset, and put 1 ship in port with your CP*, so get an interesting position with 3 ships and no Balon.
If it is M0 he can use Euron, which is more annoying - may need to Hound, but know he can bluff. Victarion does not hurt so is less annoying and if you burn Hound it is a bit painful.

Then, go RR and most likely GJ will fight and you'll probably lose. If you win, and there's a muster, game is almost in your pocket (muster ship in IB + upgrade SE in RR, take Pyke instant + ship in port). If you lose, see "lost situation"

Case 2- GJ takes RR (and SG, I suppose), normally with the footman (if he sends KN even better).
Either take HH to be safe, or do an attack, but knowing you will most likely lose and possibly get your FM killed if not Hounded (and Hound is more useful for the ships). Tend to prefer HH here.

Afterwards, GJ either stays in IB and cancels his march, and then you can safely use your M+1 (I suggest putting one ship to Sunset and attack with other. Hound is the most obvious use, but if the GJ does not Balon or Euron he can instant die to Tywin... a hard choice. You can also use both ships to reallt force a Balon), or attacks you in GS with the same situation as case 1.

Lost situation: if you have NOT lost your two fights in GS and RR, your situation is just great. Enjoy and have fun. Most likely, though, you'll have your 2 ships in Sunset, a GJ in Seagard and RR, and only your CP* to save your situation. And GJ must have burnt one or two among his 3 strongest cards, i.e. Victarion, Euron and Balon.

With your CP*, you'll usually put a ship in port + upgrade FM to SE.

If there's a muster (usually Bara in ToB will not choose muster so 30% chances) afterwards, situation is really gloomy, but if not, things are far from lost.

Your cards are normally better, you play before if no CoK: just send your two strong marches in LP and Sunset. Port situation is interesting: putting a S+1 is tempting, but will usually be burnt, R* is not stupid if GJ defends. In Sunset, one ship to IB and one to GS can hurt.

From LP to RR, if KN is there, just send Gregor and don't think too much (losing KN really hurts the Kraken), if FM, you can either send Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion (if only one card blocks you) or Gregor - all will be painful to handle for the GJ. And possibly have either an S or a R* in HH if you went there next turn.

And if you have both Muster & CoK (1/9), curse the gods and start another game, you're in real trouble.

In any case, negociate with GJ at the same time.

Anyway, that's just theory crafting. As for myself, as GJ, I played only once with both marches on ship and CP / CP on troops, worked well as there has been no muster turn 1. As Lanni, same, and was allied to GJ, so no issue.

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Judge
LoI&F: Seasons 10 and 11 King
France WCup team
2021: Bronze
2022: Silver

Thanks, I appreciate the further theory crafting! I’m just looking to make playing house Lannister a bit more fun and  use that ship to instigate with gj since that’s your best chance at winning the game (and trying to avoid relying on backstabbing gj as the only way to defeat them).

After taking this all in my thoughts are maybe best orders if you want a fight is still consolidate special in lannisport with potentially a ship and siege depending on how things go. For other orders use -1 march in port first, have support +1 in golden, and then march +1 in Stoney sept. This way if gj does the sea and land march you could attack rr second march with strength of 5 against 1 and win (would force them to bring knight if they want to burn balon to hold).

If gj instead does double ship march then can change to d+2 in golden and know you’ll hold riverrun and so can retreat to sunset unless gj wants to leave iron bay open to rr muster chance. If double land march then not going to hold rr obviously, but could change to march 0 at sea and go to sunset sea and maybe burn a decent card from gj at sea (although good chance it’s an Aeron to theon or 1 card if using hound.

Any thoughts on that or other approaches to fighting gj? Could just hunker down with d+2 and S+1 at sea to force balon with your retreat to sunset and then still muster in lannisport and either take harrenhal or consolidate on stormy sept too. That’s certainly the conservative approach!

Last edited by Zesty18 on 2020-Jun-02 22:09, edited 1x in total