Kings Landing.

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~ A Lannister Always Pays His Debts

There is another argument: what if I attacked you with 3 ships with supply limit 3-2-2? would I need to discard this one acquired with Khal? what about Khal and dragon? would I be forced to discard 2 new ships? It doesn't make sense
This case is pretty clear. Targaryen can only take over one unit. "If Khal Drogo successfully kills an opposing unit, that unit becomes immediately Targaryen."


there is also another one:
in expansion pack there is a Blackfish HC to replace te orginal one. That was not in case of Arianne, so we should consciously stick to her text ability meaning.
The original Blackfish was only removed because Brynden Tully replaced him for House Tully. It would be a bit obscure when the same charcacter would be on two different housecards for 2 different houses.

If Arianne predominate in every case (with Khal too) Targaryen is always fucked, especially when he is to discard his ships due to supply limit.
But this problem for Targaryen occurs everyime the effect of Khal Drogos triggers. So Targaryen isnt especially fucked because of Arianne.

To (partly) overcome  Arianne, Targaryen is already paying a big price (using the highest HC, risking that Martell just uses a HC with fortification)
Martell on the other hand takes the risk to lose the battle and units, because he plays a low card with no fortifications.


You can also ask on a philosophical way. How does Khal Drogo take over the unit. The HC text says: "When he kill a unit". Is the new unit a Targaryen unit which has joined the battle, is it another unit which changed sides because it was impressed by the fact that Khal Drogo killed a unit, or did Khal Drogo looted the corpse and rearmend another unit with it.

But i think, all this wont lead to a solution. We must just decide how we want it to have.

We should deal quick with it. I wont make any map updates until we have a solution, because our decision could cause that we reject the orders by Tyrell/Targaryen.

[1] - The result depends on the order in the Ironthrone track


[2] - The Targaryen unit which was gained by Khal Drogo can stay in the embattled area in every case
- ThyLear
- Etuel
- Jim_Banji

[3] - No Targaryen unit is allowed to enter/remain in the embattled area in every case
- El-Diablo
- Nymskin
- somsam
- Aces4Anax
- James_brown

Antonix?



Im happy with every decision we will make. The important thing is, that it is clear for the next time.

Last edited by El_Diablo on 2013-May-25 15:04, edited 4x in total

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~ A Lannister Always Pays His Debts

i'm not 100% sure what the creator thought about this. why did he use the word "immediatly" in Drogos HC? maybe to get sure that first the enemy becomes Targaryen, and Ariannes ability allways works against Drogo (regardless of fiefdoms track). if an army retreat it cannot retreat to 2 areas but allways 1 - so the army has to stay together, the new ship joins the ships that has to come back.

Well, Jim, that clearly is the other side of the medal you just explained. I go some steps beyond that:

The unit gets killed, before the battle is over. Because killing implies battling. That unit joins over to the former opponent "army". That whole army - not specific troops - is not allowed to stay in the embattled area. Because of Arriane`s feature I say embattled, not conquered, note this!

If we vote for the Martellian option, Khal Drogo keeps a bonus either way, because he gets an additional ships with Martell losing one. That is a +2 bonus in fact, either way we decide.

If we vote for the Targaryen Option, Martell loses everything and has no possibility to react by playing another housecard/adopt his choice to the new rules (or has he?). Targaryen on the other hand makes his +2 bonus + an additional bonus.


Thats why I vote with El_Diablo für (3), even if I cooperated with Targaryen to get that battle started.


For me it is a tie, which HAS to be fixed by a chief`s decision or democratic advance. The latter implies the problem that many aren`t that sure about what to do.



- Clearly Stark has good reasons to vote for 2, even though he found strong arguments to vote for 3. That`s a good example for how we adopt our voting to our possible benefits. May it be willed or a Freudian unconscious act

- I see a weakness in my argumentation that it isnt clear yet, if the new constellation (taking the sea) would be a bonus for Targaryen. I guess it wouldnt be a malus, thus I argumented as mentioned above.


PS: No time left for long readthroughs or careful editing
PPS: ONE EDIT: I missed the Barathonian post...

Last edited by Aces4Anax on 2013-May-25 13:01, edited 1x in total

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Life in Westeros is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.

You can also ask on a philosophical way. How does Khal Drogo take over the unit. The HC text says: "When he kill a unit". Is the new unit a Targaryen unit which has joined the battle, is it another unit which changed sides because it was impressed by the fact that Khal Drogo killed a unit, or did Khal Drogo looted the corpse and rearmend another unit with it.
sry, but that`s not a philosophical question, but a question about might and magic. Thus I follow your argumentation.

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Life in Westeros is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.

option [3]

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ok, final words for all those voting for an option 3:

this option do not adhere in any way to the text of HCs involved and is against logic interpretation of it's literal meaning.

Aces4Anax, you are using words "not allowed to stay in the embattled area" but on Arianne HC there is nothing about 'staying' but all about 'moving', so your interpretation is wrong.

another one:
If we vote for the Martellian option, Khal Drogo keeps a bonus either way, because he gets an additional ships with Martell losing one. That is a +2 bonus in fact, either way we decide.

you can't call a bonus something that comes with a standard (in this case, Khal Drogo HC special ability)


I think there is not much sense to argue about it, just let the others decide and that will be easy as we are odd

Last edited by ThyLear on 2013-May-25 13:57, edited 3x in total

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As a well-spent day brings happy sleep, so a life well spent brings happy death. LDV

We also need to agree if they should draw HCs again.

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~ Not every Lannister is fool for glory ~

In case of option 3 it won't be very convenient for me but

I don't want to draw again, to much confusion and the process of deciding which HC to choose is already compromised.

As I understand is solves the matter on Martell side as he wasn't expecting me to stay in ESS at all.

Last edited by ThyLear on 2013-May-25 14:28, edited 1x in total

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As a well-spent day brings happy sleep, so a life well spent brings happy death. LDV

ok, final words for all those voting for an option 3:

this option do not adhere in any way to the text of HCs involved and is against logic interpretation of it's literal meaning.

Aces4Anax, you are using words "not allowed to stay in the embattled area" but on Arianne HC there is nothing about 'staying' but all about 'moving', so your interpretation is wrong.

another one:
If we vote for the Martellian option, Khal Drogo keeps a bonus either way, because he gets an additional ships with Martell losing one. That is a +2 bonus in fact, either way we decide.

you can't call a bonus something that comes with a standard (in this case, Khal Drogo HC special ability)


I think there is not much sense to argue about it, just let the others decide and that will be easy as we are odd

hard words

- I just interpreted the battle to have taken place in the ESS. The HC text is describing the pieces movement, I just meant the virtual battle, which took place IN the ESS, so the ships have already been there, but only werent moved yet. Talking this over is does not bring us forward as you already mentioned.
But just to be clear: "Bonus" was used because I compared te situation before and after playing the HC (or another HC). It was not meant as an additional benefit.


Your last post is good. Martell couldnt know that theres such a problem coming up.


Let us vote and then both chose new HC, the same or others.

Last edited by Aces4Anax on 2013-May-25 17:18, edited 2x in total

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Life in Westeros is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.

Ok. Lets stick to option 3. Antonix's vote wont change the majority and he already mentioned that he shares the view of Martell. I asked also El_Popelos to take part in this vote, because he played Martell last and knows the 9Player game, but he seems to be away for a couple of days and i dont want to delay the game further more.

I think we wont choose new housecards. Targaryen already said that he is fine with the selection and Martell thought before the battle that its handled like we are going to handle it now.

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~ A Lannister Always Pays His Debts

Martell please choose an area for retreat in ESS.

I need the wishes of Lannister, Greyjoy and Tyrell for their CP Orders.

I'll upgrade two of my footmen to knight in KL.

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~ A Lannister Always Pays His Debts

Power Tokens.

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~ Not every Lannister is fool for glory ~

Map is updated. After all march orders. Martell retreats to Sunspear Port.


I need the wishes of Lannister and Tyrell for their CP Orders.

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~ A Lannister Always Pays His Debts

Powertokens and one question (not meant rude): why do I have to report it? I got no option. Or do I and didnt notice?

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Life in Westeros is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short.

You can build fortifications instead of getting PT.

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~ A Lannister Always Pays His Debts